Key safe

Don't tar other people with your problems. My parents had care staff daily for years and never had anything bad happen.

I do, and you would think they would make sure their "approved" fitters also knew what they were fitting. Just another reason not to use a handyman to do work, it would be better to get in a trades person that has rudimentary training or can read.

Who employs them? I'd trust our direct employs _far_ more than the agency people. That extends to simply doing their jobs, let alone doing things that aren't their job, or their honesty.

Nearly all of them are _either_ 4 independent digits (10000 combinations) or a selection of 0-10 digits where each digit is either used once or not used and the order doesn't matter (1024 combinations).

Although there are a few locks (a well-known brand used in offices) that have a sequence of digits (i.e. fixed length, ordered) and also forbid repetition, I've not seen that mechanism in a water-resistant external form. They're also manipulatable.

A sequential drum combination (back & forth dial) is a nightmare on an external door, as it needs good eyesight, good lighting, good motor control and is generally unsuitable as an outside door lock, no matter who's using it. If you need that level, go electronic. A combination of keypad (carers) and simple cardlock might work, especially if it's non-contact.

As a very vague rule of thumb, a lock with a varying sequence length is likely to be _less_ secure in practice.

An agency contracted by the LA to provide care. We never did get around to applying for direct aid as the other brothers and sister were always arguing about it.

My sister was worst, she said we should do all the care, but wanted every weekend off to go caravanning.

The ones with wheels have many combinations but are easy to find the code for each wheel if you know how. The GE boxes are mechanical and all you have to do is press the correct buttons in any order.

There are some electric locks with keypads that do have a large number of combinations.

The trouble with most keypad locks, if they're used regularly and the code isn't changed, is that in time the 'right' buttons and surrounds become scuffed and worn, partially giving the game away...

Not so. The most common code set is year of birth. If an ambulance crew don't know the code, they ask a neighbour how old the patient is & key in the year. It works 90% of the time.

You couldn't have 1941, 1944, 1949 etc if you could only use each button once.

With the GE Keysafe the absolute maximum number of combinations is

Each key _can_ only be used once in any key sequence and the sequence of entry is unimportant, so a lock set to 1234 will open with 1324,

Although intrinsically not particularly secure, in many cases it will still be more secure than the traditional night latch fitted to a cardboard door. The greatest weakness is still the human one of combinations being written down and never changed.

Its no good trying to use facts with TMH, he is too stupid, as his continual insults rather than actually reading what I said shows.

Just ignore him as he adds very little to any discussion.

Sorry, TMH, you are just wrong. That's *exactly* how they work.

I have one here at Lowe Towers. ( stops IdiotBoy (tm) (AKA #1 son)loosing his key )

To set the combination, you open the thing and there is a screwdriver-slot behind each of the 10 buttons. Each can be set to 'yes' or 'no' essentially.

So if you want the combination to be 1865, you set the screw behind '1'. '8', '6' and '5' to 'yes', and the others to 'no'.

Once you have set the combination, it makes no difference which order you press the buttons. 1568 will get you in. Just so long as you press the 'yes' buttons, and leave the 'no' buttons un-pressed, that's all it takes.

There's no method to control the sequence, nor to have the same digit repeated. If you want to set the combination to '1911', you set the '1' button to 'yes', the '9' button to 'yes', and then what?

So setting a 10-digit code would be pretty stoopid, then?

Owain

probably :-)

If the combination had all 10 digits in it, then you just press all the buttons, in any old order.

But it goes to show that the maths is not as simple as it first seems.

Also, they are made from very soft metal. I had to drill out the existing holes in the back-plate to mount mine, and the drill went through it like it was chocolate.

So I'd say the best advice is to mount it out of direct sight ( with the rubber over over it ) , but not so out-of-sight that a ner-do-well has all day to hammer on it. It would not stand up to machine tools for more than a few moments.

Mine is visible in the front driveway, but only if you know what you are looking for. But a scrote would be very visible hacking at it.

It's gotten me out of a tight spot more than once.

Ron Lowe :

Then the job's done. 1911 will open it. So will 19, of course.

Yes, that's correct.

The argument against these devices is that the mechanical limitations reduces the number of possible combinations to a low level, 1023 IIRC.

But that isn't the point.

No-one is going to spend time and try to manually brute-force the combination. Manually pushing buttons 1023 times is not fun, and is slow.

You'd just attack it's weakest point: mechanically. They will not withstand mechanical brute-force for long.

So mounting the device sensibly is important.

On most locks like this you can even push the buttons all at once...

No, 1234 is the same as 4321 and 1432 and 1342 etc

I would connect a couple of the non-used buttons (especially the top left one) to ring a loud bell for a minute.