I think there is a downside to the 'always signal' philosophy - If everyone always signals for every little change of course etc. then it generates a *lot* of distracting 'noise'. The fewer distractions we have when driving the better.
I remember there was a discussion the other year about the issue of keeping your foot permanently on the footbrake to keep the brake lights on when you are stopped, and some people said that in America, if you take your foot off the brake, the absence of brake lights is interpreted as "I am about to set off" and if you do it when the car is still stationary at lights, you run the very real risk of being rear-ended. Maybe Americans don't have the problem of three large red lights shining in your face dazzling you and taking a while to fade when you need to see as you set off. I think leaving your brake lights on once you've stopped is incredibly rude and inconsiderate.
Our Honda has a "hill start assist" feature for people who are unable to do a hill start (*). I've never tried relying on it: I always hold the car on the handbrake as I am coordinating the increase in power with the letting up the of clutch, and would not want to trust anything which was *intended* to hold the car but was out of my own control. I've always wondered: presumably it only acts to prevent the car rolling *backwards* and still allows the car to be driven forwards, releasing itself automatically as it senses forward movement.
(*) Try doing a hill start on a 1:3 hill when the car in front has ground to a halt so you have to do likewise and the car behind you has stopped right on your bumper so you mustn't roll back. That sorts the sheep from the goats ;-) Been there, done that, got the teeshirt - Rosedale Chimney in North Yorkshire. Old dear hit third instead of first when changing from second as she was straddling the road on a hairpin bend, stalled and then couldn't get going again. There were several cars behind me and we were all stuck. Eventually I got out and offered to drive her car to the top and then jogged back to my car - to a round of applause ;-)
The only time I did get into difficulties was on another occasion, again on a 1:3 hill, this time coming out of Littlebeck to the A171 half-way up Blue Bank near Whitby. I was going up, sounding my horn before each hairpin bend, and a guy in a Land Rover came storming down the hill on the wrong side of the road so I had to steer up onto the verge to avoid him. And then found that I couldn't set off again because as I very gently released the brake to get both wheels back on tarmac, I felt the car tilt over until the door sill grounded on the road. Buggerlugs who had forced me off the road was nowhere to be seen - at least being a 4x4 there was a chance that he might have been able to tow my car up hill enough to get both wheels onto level ground. Somehow I managed to manoeuvre the car, by a number of forward and backward movements, but it was an unnerving 10 minutes or so. Once all four wheels were on the road, it was a straightforward job of doing a 1:3 hill start ;-)
I'm not advocating indicating any more than you would otherwise do, just that you don't filter based on whether you are aware of anyone who needs to see.
I agree that any signal used to excess runs the risk of the "crying wolf" effect: that drivers will ignore the one time when you really *do* need to tell them that you are changing course.
It's the same as brake lights. If someone is "a bit of a braker" (or other, onanistic words ending in "-ker"!) and brakes for every little dip or shallow curve, or every time a rabbit looks up from feeding on the verge, you start to ignore their brake lights. I usually drop back further than normal when I encounter "a bit of braker" so if I do suddenly realise that this time they really *are* braking, I've got longer to react. I am sometimes amazed at how many times a car ahead of me will brake in a situation where I've already read the road and lifted off the power to lose a bit of speed without always needing to brake. Obviously that only applies to slight bends or hills, and there are still times when the brakes need to be used. Someone I used to get a lift to work with never coasted: he was either on the accelerator or else on the brake, no halfway house with neither pedal pressed. It made for a very jerky journey :-( He was a rally driver in his spare time and he said he liked his Hillman Hunter because it was one of the few cars (at the time) which had an "organ pedal" accelerator which made it a lot easier to do heel-and-toe gearchanges while braking. He practiced his skills on quiet country lanes, and occasionally said things like "if I hadn't got you in the car I'd take that bend at 90". I heard a few years later that he'd hit a tree on a bend, with fatal consequences :-(
It is your responsibility to match speeds and merge. They should not be expected to do anything. Saying that, you are moviong into a lane on your right and so should be indicating if there is any chance that there is someone who might see and benefit from seeing.
SteveW
I ride like that too.
SteveW
That isnt what is being discussed. What is being discussed is indicating when there is no one to see the indication.
Having fun thrashing that straw man ?
here is what my handbook (freelander) says:
'N? - Neutral: Select neutral when the vehicle is stationary and the engine is required to idle for a brief period (at traffic lights, for example). In neutral, the transmission is not locked, so the Parking brake must be applied whenever ?N? is selected. Press the selector release button to move from neutral to reverse.
DO NOT allow the vehicle to remain stationary for any length of time with a drive gear selected and the engine running (always select ?N? if the engine is to idle for a prolonged period).
Ergo it has disconnected the engine from the transmission and torque converter and all the drive shafts.
The transmisson becomes a 'torque free zone'
My autos have all with rather nasty jolts allowed selection of anything abnormal while in motion
It is possible. Ive slected 'park' whilst still rolling and it sounds like a dog clutch being engaged...Yuk!
From Jaguar XF manual I happen to have as well..
Never select the Park (P) position whilst the vehicle is in motion. Doing so may cause serious damage to the transmission. Never select the Reverse (R) position whilst the vehicle is in forward motion. Doing so may cause serious damage to the transmission. Never select a forward gear whilst the vehicle is in rearward motion. Doing so may cause serious damage to the transmission. Do not rev the engine or allow it to run above normal idle speed while selecting D or R, or while the vehicle is stationary with any gear selected. Do not allow the vehicle to remain stationary for any length of time, with a gear selected and the engine running. Always select P or N if the engine is to idle for a prolonged period.
So that is two different vehicles with different gearboxes that both conform that neutral is recommended if the car is stationary a long time (I did overheat an XK8 gearbox once taking two hours to get out of a show - stop start etc) and bot wram youi aginst stuffing te gerabocx intop gear or out of gear (except neutral) whole moving, which implies its possible
It's now POSM :-
P repare
O bserve
S ignal
M aneuver
Ditto. Again its an art form. It needs practice to use an auto in heavy traffic. On a motorway its no worse than using a clutch in town.
But I will admit I don't tend to drive in metropolitan areas, and its easy to spot drivers who are from them by their utter inability to drive without a sign every 5ft telling them what to do.
80% of shit motorway driving is due to motorists no thinking the requisite 1-2 *miles* ahead, but simply 100-200metres ahead.
The most dangerous manoeuvre on a motorway is changing lanes (which covers joining/leaving). If you can reduce the number of times you change lane in a journey, you also decrease the chances of an accident.
The thing is discussion of improving anything to do with motorways and motorway driving is a little redundant IMHO as motorways will be the first roads that allow (or even *insist*) on autonomous vehicles. At which point the reduction in accidents *and* vehicular wear and tear will prompt wider take up.
Just a personal view. But one that seems to have official backing ...
That is what I would expect: that N is *designed* to be used as an idling gear when you are stationary in a queue of traffic, and that leaving it in D when stationary for some time is not recommended. I can imagine that you should not move from D to N and back *while the car is moving*.
But I've heard the opposite advice before: that you should leave the car in D and not keep moving it to N when stationary. I wonder where that advice has come from.
Do automatic gearboxes tend to have their own cooling system (and maybe temperature gauge/light) that is separate from the engine cooling system and temperature warnings? Or does the engine cooling water also circulate round the gearbox as well in the case of a torque converter automatic? I presume robotic manuals (eg the VW DSG gearbox) are less of a problem with overheating because they are essentially a manual gearbox (albeit with two lay shafts and two clutches to allow one gear to be disengaged as the other is engaged) with control logic and gearchange/clutch-change servos bolted on. I'd be interested to test drive a car with a DSG gearbox, both in fully automatic and paddle up/down shift mode. I've heard it said that some of the early ones were a bit jerky to take up power when moving off from rest: it's a shame the DSG doesn't have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off or when crawling forward - I find it a lot easier to control very slow movements (eg parking of pulling up to a caravan) with the clutch than when the accelerator is the only means of speed control.
Or Can My Safety Be Given Away:
Course - decide what it is to be Mirror Signal Brake - if necessary Gear - change to the appropriate gear, if necessary Action - perform the manoeuvre that you have planned
Before I took my IAM test, I'd got a bit sloppy over the 10 years since I'd taken my normal test, as regards interleaving braking and changing gear, which took a bit of practice to separate. It was unnerving to approach a junction in top gear and stay in that gear almost to stalling point, and then cleanly, confidently and *smoothly* dropping straight into (for example) second to accelerate away if the junction turned out to be clear of traffic.
I remember just after I'd passed my IAM test I was in a night-school group that was making a short video, and I had to drive for a sequence that they were filming. And I got "told off" for driving "too perfectly" (eg hands at about 10 to 2, not changing down through the gears etc), so I had to deliberately pretend to be a novice driver with all the little faults and foibles (*) that you develop a few years after passing. They even wanted me to pull the handbrake on without pressing the button, so they got that intensely annoying rasp of the ratchet. I did humorously suggest that maybe they should dub the sound on afterwards as a class exercise in dubbing on effects in post-production ;-)
(*) eg steering with one hand, or using the "mechanic's grip" of gripping the wheel with your hand palm towards you when steering through a large angle.
I always think this makes it almost inevitable that the signal is too late. Over and over again one sees the Signal/Manoeuvre being done almost simultaneously which makes the signal completely useless.
Ideally I think it should be:-
Observe Signal Observe Manoeuvre
with the second Observe being the shoulder check/lifesaver.
However, in reality I think putting Signal before Observe would make sense. One should be aware of what's around one so 'Prepare' should have taken account of that and it *should* be clear. You then signal and 'Observe' to make really sure your awareness was right. If you were wrong the worst that can happen is that you change your mind and cancel the signal.
You can and I do and its not warned against in the handbook. Never done it at speed though
that troll JIM probably.
It is amazing that myths get propaated. Possibly at some time someone did make a car that ...and then it becomes standard. I remeber my father who really as a wartime pilot should have known netter using the handbrake in long hill descents. On being challendged he claimed that it 'was a steel band arond the propshaft and woulnt wear out'.
Noew the ONLY vehicle I know that ever had a propshaft brake was a land rover and that was NOT a steel band but a convenmtional drum.
In te USA I haerd that 'you really need at leasts a V6 or better a V8 to get over the rockies'
Or indeed to win pikes peak. Until the lovely Michelle Mouton took her twin turbo 4 cylinder quattro up there in a time that took years to beat.
Yes and no. They certainly have their own oil systenms- or rather automatic transmission fluid. .
These may, or may not have transission cooling radiators attached to them.
As far as temp sensors go I know the Jag at least had one, but then its a powerful car. And it did come up with a warning about transission overheating.
Checking my freelander, no, that doesnt seem to have a warnoing light or sensor
Not as far as I know. In general there is either a inned part of te casing on skmall boxes, or a sperate finned thing on medium or a full blown oil cooler type radiatior with a fan on some models
In a sense all autoboxes except variable ratio are manuals - how you change gear is the difference betwen them.
In conventional auto boxes high pressure oil moves internal clutches in and out: Transmission fluid is more hydraulic fluid than lubricant.
racing auto boxes are real clutch sasnd slam type boxes designed for the fastest gearchange possible. 20 10ms gearchanges is a quarter of a second per lap..that power is not being applied.
The mnost dangerosu thing on a motway is NOT changing lanes, as mrs plod 'my speedo days I am doing 65' middle laner exclusively causes other drivers extreme problems in trying to get past her. And congestion which increases danger from cascade effects.
There is nothing dangerous about changing lanes unless its in germany where you may have missed the black porsche doing 160mph in the outer lane..
But that is what mirrors are for.
1 or 2 miles is still 1 or 2 minutes away and rarely can you see that far ahead.
Some drivers struggle to think more 10 to 20 metres ahead judging by the number I see catching up (70 v 60 sort of catching up) with slower traffic then braking when only a car length or two back.
Motorways are likely to be the first to allow autonomous vehicles because they are strictly controlled and driving on them is a piss simple compared to an urban street. Why do you think the M6 in Cumbria has been choosen to trial semi-autonomous lorry convoys and not the M6 north of Birmingham? Nothing to do with 20 miles between junctions and low volumes of traffic...
As far as accidents are concerned single carriage way rural roads are far more dangerous. 60 mph limit, sharp bends, meaning leaving the road and hitting a tree or a relatively high speed "wrong side" head on crash. Not to mention all manner of other hazards, from pheasants, to sheep, to bikers, to tractors.
Motorways, don't have sharp bends(*), don't have on coming traffic, don't have slow moving vehicles. Relative vechicle speeds are also low, just 20 mph between a vehicle at 60 and one at 80. Leading to more time to avoid a collision and if one does occur it's a low speed one. The only road kill I've seen on motorways has been badger or fox.
(*) Unless your going considerably over the speed limit, 100 - 120...
You can still *think* that far ahead ....
And you should. There is a 2 lane slip road off the M11 onto the A11.
As I entered it I looked behind and no one was behind me so I indicated and moved into the fast lane of the slip road.
Causing the guy who had suddenly cut across from the *M11* FAST lane to take to the grass at 90mph..
(I was already doing 70mph)
Where I live it's a danger of the car creeping backwards. When paused at a junction I hold on the foot brake with my left foot, and when the lights change bit slightly with my right foot to the point where I can lift my left foot. Most of the hills are too steep to give you enough time to swap a single foot from brake to accelerator without rolling.
On such hills I put the gear in neutral, but not in park as I was told that the pawl isn't strong enough to hold the car against such hills. Also, the hand brake isn't strong enough (and isn't expected to be) to prevent rolling on such hills.
The handbrake will certainly not hold a car in drive, for a few months after I passed there were several times I thought "the car's not going very fast" and realised the hand brake was still on.
That's what a handbrake is for - to hold the car on the hill, and especially as you are about to set off.
I always laugh at the American usage of the name "emergency brake" for the handbrake (although it's sometimes operated by a foot pedal). I have yet to find a car whose handbrake is strong enough to slow a car significantly once it is already moving, even if it may make a noticeable difference if you accidentally set off from rest with the handbrake on.
Is there something seriously wrong with your handbrake? The last time I drove a car with a handbrake that would not hold it from rolling back on a steep hill when waiting at a junction was my mum's Renault 6, of mid 70s vintage, and some of that may have been the umbrella-handle handbrake lever under the dashboard which may not have had as much leverage to exert good tension on the handbrake cable - and maybe some stretching of the cable as well.
If I park on a steep hill, I always leave the car in gear (reverse if I'm facing downhill, first if I'm facing uphill - so accidentally starting in gear (*) is less likely to propel the car into the one in front or behind) as well as with the handbrake on, but I'm not sure whether I really need that belt-and-braces precaution, or whether the need for it diminished as cars started to have disc rather than drum brakes.
Thinking of braking, I gather from my nephews who have passed their tests within the last few years that the use of engine braking on a long steep downhill is deprecated these days. Discs are less likely to overheat the pads than drums are, but I'd still use at least *some* engine braking to allow periods on straight sections, as opposed to bends, where I can reduce footbrake pressure in case of pads heating up.
(*) I can't remember the last time I accidentally started the car in gear or let the clutch up with the engine still running, because I got in the habit of always waggling the gear lever from side to side, to prove that it's in neutral, every time before I start the engine or before I let the clutch up prior to stopping the engine. And of course a lot of modern cars will not let the starter motor work unless the clutch is pressed, which is a bummer if you stall on a level crossing and you need to crank the car off the crossing because the barriers have started to close - while I'd be prepared to bail out if necessary, it's better to at least *try* to get the car off the crossing, whether or not I'm in the car, to avoid the train derailing.
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