Imagine

Depends on the range you want. I would gues sthat teh totalpower train on a conventional vehicle including fuel is around about 70% of the unladen total.

After all, a car is just a power train plus some wheels plus a box to hold it all together. The box is conventinally made of rather cheap poor material - pressed steel, as there is a larger pressure on cost, than weight, in most cars. t one extree, yo can see smething like a carbon F1 car, whose bodyshell is almost nothing by comparison to the powertrain and driver. So you can in principle optimise your capital/running cost at almost any ratio.

Typ[ically one would add perhaps another 50% to that for load carryng, so powertrain to total laden weight would be roughly 50%.

Do that with lithiums, and you get to around 150-200 miles range more or less.

Well apart from the fact that because of precisely that one expects electric car uptake to be more on the urban/commuting front that fast motorway cruiser..every little help. Better aero can improve high speed economy, as can trading cornering performance on fat squishy tyres, for lower rolling resistance on taller harder tyres.

I am not supping at dribbles font. Far from it. Dribble is the worst advert for electric cars here. Iv'e done a lot of calculations on the feasibility, and the answer is, its feasible to produce an electric car that is more than good enough to be everyones 'second car' at least. I.e. the one that takes the kids to school, the person to work, does the shopping etc etc.

It wont do a 400 mile trip that well, that's for sure. Not without at least a 45 minute break somewhere in the middle, but for that, pay the price of a fuel car, take the breaks, or hire one for the purpose.

The single most important step is going from lead or nickle at sort of

30-50 mile ranges, to lithium that will net sort of 150 mile ranges, or a bit more if you shave away at some of the details to squeeze a bit more efficiency out.

That takes the potential target journey from the sort of sub 10% to the > 90% mark.

Which I am not doing.

Lithium batteries are at around the 700MJ/tonne mark now. The very best Nickle metal hydride are less than half that.

I estimate a small car like a Punto needs arond a 50Kwh (180MJ) 'tank'. In NiMh that's 3/4 ton, with Li-Ion its more like 1/4 ton.

A liter of diesel is about 10Kwh..burned at say 20% efficiency in a good engine, 50 liters of diesel represents 100 KWh of battery.

So getting say 25 litres of diesel equivalent in a power train at around the 400kg mark is very doable with Li-Ion of one sort or another.

And getting 50 litres of diesel equivalent takes us up to around a half tonne of battery. That's very comparable with the weight of a normal IC power train..the electric motors dont add much, and there is very little else required like radioator, massive gearboxes or exhaust systems, or indeed even antivibration mounts and the mases of pipes and ducts that surround a typical IC installation.

The Prius is crap because it does none of that. It still has a conventional engine: All the electrical side is, is a slightly more efficient way to deploy it under certain road conditions.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher
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Actually, its pretty much achieveable.

Lithium charge/discharge efficiencies are in the highish 90% levels, and so are electric motors and their controllers, if designed carefully.

I suspect the theoretical best of a diesel engine is at most 35% with normal combustion temps. In practice they are probably about 20%.

You can do better in a power station. Maybe 40% in a steam turbine. It might be more carbon efficient to burn petrol or diesel in power stations and then run electric ars, though I suspect its only marginally better overall.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

WEll indeed it might.

However I suspect there would be an outcry if they did to a huge extent.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

100 x 3.5GW nuclear power stations, and off peak charging.

Right now we have enough overnight capacity for a LOT of electric cars. theet AVERAGE car probably only needing 10Kwh or less per day you can take the peak grid output and subtract it from the avereage overnight one, and see just how many.

It wont rdo teh full country on an all electric basis..that requires that we triple the grid and the power generating capacity, and thats where 100 nuclear sets come from. I calcated that the total power consumption (not just electrical) of the UK in worst case was around

350GW. I think the grid is currently able to deliver about 70Gw. Average consumption is about 200GW for the country, in terms of what it puts OUT (as opposed to the oil that is poured In, as it were..)

I did all tehs calcs some time ago. Google tethem.

But the broad brush figures are to triple the electrical generation and grid capacity,. and then stuff a bit of spare in for short term problems and to allow some spare capacity to be serviced..although typically you would do that in summer on a routine basis.

70-100 nuclear stations would do the trick.

At around £2000 per kilowatt capacity, that's about £700Bn. To totally replace the power stations and upgrade to all nuclear. For example.

One could build ten stations, and incraeae our electrical capacity by

50% for what it cost to rescue Northern Rock.

As an example. A nice staring point.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Actually, at around 4p per very profitable nuclear unit, its already cheaper than oil to use electricity.

If we had the stations.

Its even cheaper with heat pumps.

I don't know what gas currently costs..3p/Kwh?

well stuff that in an 80% efficient boiler and its 3.75 p.. so very close to a sane nuclear cost.

It only has to go up a wee bit more..and think how NICE it wold be. Piece of cake to control every electric radiator independently..no more bloody pipes..motorized valves..pumps..Frankly I can't wait.

However the cost case for cars is far more compelling, since they are at bet 25% efficient, with electrical cars being around the 80% overall (power station to wheel).

It is not clever to take Clive Sincalair, Milk Floats, or Dr Drivel as representing in any way the reality of BEV's

The G-whizz is possibly nearer the current mark and that's lead acid..

formatting link
mile range and about 50mph top speed, on a *lead acid* battery pack.

Its almost good enough for me to consider, but not quite. 100mph ad 100 mile range woud suit me very well for most trips, and upping that to 150 mile range would cope with all except what I use the camper for.

A The G-whizz is a good alternative to a moped in the rain, basically.

Now this is not the be all and end all, but it does actually exist, and has been fairly extensively tested.

Gong Li-ion at about 1/3rd the weight or less, takes you to Tesla territory - 120 miles and/or 150mph :-)

There is no doubt its possible: the devil is in the detail. cost battery life, safety of the battery, recharge rates, and so on.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

I thought we were currently suffering lots of generating capacity outage at the moment - e.g are there not some nuclear units not currently (ha!) running for various reasons?

Reply to
Rod

A snotty uni man motors his voice Electric motors, batteries, the superior choice

Clever clogsness he engages so Looking down at the peasants below

Thinking he knows all the solutions His smell indicative, avoidance of ablutions

He talks to plantpots of the web So take no notice of this pleb

If this fool should ever roam Just box his ears and send his home

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Not sure what the current situation is..those reactors have been running many years beyond expected service life. But last year was the bad year. I think most are up to more or less full capacity now.

Just waiting fr EDF to finish buying British energy and cracking on with new ones..

If you look at service histories on the later models, nuclear has a better uptime record than pretty much anything else.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

From hangover to drunk again by lunchtime.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Please eff off as you are a total plantpot.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Must admit the nuclear status came partly from a Radio 4 program the other day which tried to explain why November was going to have such unbelievably high electricity costs. And why that was happening here but not nearly to the same extent elsewhere. From memory they were talking about something like £40 per last year, £100 not long ago and £140 this month. Far greater rise than could ever be accounted for by oil/gas costs.

Reply to
Rod

Don't give up the day job...

Reply to
The Medway Handyman

Oh look! A plantpot.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

In message , Doctor Drivel writes

There speaks the vegetable

Reply to
geoff

Drivel's in lurve again.

I will remember to use the bidet.....

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

..Of grown produce Maxie spouts ..Of carrots, spuds and green sprouts

..Maxie chomps on healthy grub ..Just like a fatty man should

..The veggies make gas, we must tell ..Uncontrolled flatulence Maxie does expel

..Hearing loud noises through the air ..Rest assured, do not stir

..Do not scatter, do please stay ..It's Maxie's botty having its way

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Doctor Drivel coughed up some electrons that declared:

Is this a new therapy they have you on?

Reply to
Tim S

[snip for the sake of literature]

Not working, then. Suggest plasticine modelling would be more appropriate. You can't damage that with a hacksaw.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

You must eff off as you are a plantpot.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

..Therapy is on his mind ..What sort? What kind?

..Familar with mental strife ..This explains his sordid life

..Secure institutions firmly in case ..Jackets with no sleeves, they made him waer

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

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