How does Part P help?

First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will not happen with part P. Also "professional" electricians can be as bad as the worst DIYer. I am working on my daughters house in Manchester. The previous occupant was an elderly lady (ripe for rip-off). Speaking to one of her sons he tells me that she had the immersion heater, and some other electrical work done by a electrical installation company of some standing. Just started on the second bedroom, took out the old airing cupboard and wiring for the immersion heater. On tracing it I found that to save running a new wire up to it they simply disconnected one side of the ring main from the distribution box and ring then used that for the immersion heater. Nice money saver eh?
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Broadback wrote:

About seven years ago, an European directive on 'electromagnetic compatibility' (EMC) came in to force, and the onus was on equipment manufacturers to test and ensure that their products complied. However the definition of manufacturer was a bit wide, and people who assembled products built out of subassemblies (the PC builder community) also came under the same regime, even though they had used 'CE' marked items in the build (these don't guarantee a system 'pass' as other factors need to be taken in to consideration....)
Anyway, back in 1998 the mechanics of fear*, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about impending prosecutions from the authorities, lead some companies to spend thousands on radio frequency emission testing and static discharge testing. A friend had a short job doing some of these tests - getting some PC systems to pass without wrapping everything in copper foil, ferrite cores and additional passive filters was a very frustrating time for him, but it was felt necessary because it was the Law...
As far as I know, It still is the law.
But apart from the larger PC manufacturers, the rest of the industry has relaxed somewhat - and now it's back to the good ole pre-CE days. You can probably cook a steak placing it next to some of the plastic unshielded PC boxes on sale today. (Sorry, I jest - April 1st has just gone by...)
So, similarly the observance of 'Part P' will pass, and people will still be at risk from dodgy home electrics (never mind the bargain metal table lamp from the car boot sale with the rubber sheathed two core twisted flex)
--
Adrian


* - in a FUD fueled technical journal of the time, a case was cited
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It is.

Yes - but the compenents - specifically the PSUs - have improved dramatically. A home assembled PC possibly still fails but at least it won't be so far out now.
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Broadback wrote:

It seems people are all Part Pee'd out ... if you look back a few weeks in this NG you should be able to get the gist ...
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AlexW wrote:

I asked a BCO about tis yesterday. He seemd very relaxed, and suggested I simply fiill in some forms and self register myself as a competent person.
'as long as we can see your wiring before its plastered up, it should be fine'
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The Natural Philosopher Wrote:

He doesn't know what he is talking about. You can't register as competent person, only companies in business can register and the nominate a competent person/s. and looking at wiring before plasterin is not required, he sounds more dangerous than the DIyers. You ar supposed to tell them before starting the work and they stuff you for registration fee, then when it is complete you are not allowed t energise the circuit until it has been inspected and tested by competent persom appointed by the BCO who will energise it when he i satisfied and you pay the examination fee. This all costs the same a getting a registered spark to do it for you, generally. As for our friend who asked the question, if the company was NICEI registered tell them and they will take the issue up. No electricia should be taking any shortcuts, thats if it really was done by company. I was involved in a similar instance some time ago and whe all came to all the guy had done it himself after other work had bee done by the company properly and he was trying to pass the blame on when it caused a small fire
-- Miketew
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On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:17:56 +0100, Miketew

From the legal perspective that is true. The practical point was that he was not bothered about it, probably because he realises that in comparison with what can happen if a house is not constructed correctly, there isn't a problem to solve.

You are making the assumption that DIYers are dangerous. There is no evidence to support that DIY fixed wiring work is a cause of fires or electrocutions in any meaningful quantity.

This is the NICEIC propaganda on the subject.

I hadn't noticed that the Statutory Instrument amending the Building Regulations or even the Approved Documents appointed NICEIC as the policeman for all of this. Also, contrary to what NICEIC may think, there are a number of other approved self certification schemes, so it should not imagine that it has an exclusive. You aren't in their marketing department are you?

You must have been very fortunate to find one of the handful of fires that occur each year from fixed wiring.
--

.andy

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Andy Hall Wrote:

You read but obviously didn't understand what i said ( and I'm not a NIC supporter) If the firm was NIC registered then they would take u the issue of poor work. Not hard to follow. I see dangerous wiring every week and it is all DIY work not done b qualified electricians. that doesnt mean all electricians are saint but they do understand the dangers involved in not doing thing correctly. Not hard to understand.
There arent a huge number of fires each year but there are som attributed to electrical faults, The point I made was this guy had don the wrong thing and attempted to blame a legit company for it and i happens often. Not hard to understan.
You obviously have knowledge and have read the regs from end to end bu seem to spend more time being contentious than helpful which is sad. In some cases people can and do do electricl work ok but in the mai because they do not have in depth knowledge of the subject o electrical installation, they make mistakes or assumptions that ar potentially dangerous. I dont like part P and anyone with sense can se its more to do with tax revenue than safety issues. but it is there an it is law and encouraging people to flout it is irresponsible
-- Miketew
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On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:40:40 +0100, Miketew

Possibly, but they are meant to be operating a self certification scheme, not acting as police with regard to the legislation.

I find it very hard to believe that *all* of the bad work that you claim that you see is attributable to DIY. The competent DIYer has a far greater commitment to doing good and safe work than an unqualified cowboy. You don't mention the cowboys which this legislation is supposed to put out of business and of course won't. You are also assuming that a qualified electrician is going to understand the dangers in not doing something properly. That's a very big assumption.

No it isn't, and I wasn't condoning it.

If you had taken the trouble to read the thread and the topic, you would have realised that this *is* a contentious issue and that most people here who realise what has been going on and have taken the trouble to point out to the government that the basis is flawed, are somewhat underwhelmed by it.

That's a ridiculous and sweeping statement which is not supported by fact or outcome.

Nobody is encouraging anybody to flout the law, but simply pointing out that in this case that it is an ass. The original basis for implementing it was flawed, the statistics were cooked, the wrong thing was implemented and the official bodies who are meant to police it aren't interested. All of this was entirely predictable.
The only parties who actually wanted it were the trade organisations who saw it as a way to secure work at a higher price for their members and a government who want to regulate as much as they can and bring the trades into the tax system. All of this was when there wasn't a problem to solve in the first place.
--

.andy

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wrote:

Andy, hear, hear - a nice crisp summary of a complete and utter mess!
Cheers
Tim
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Andy Hall wrote:

unqualified
I think its also a big assumption to think that they could care less. Reality is a lot of humans couldnt give a monkeys about anything but themselves, and the exams dont address that point in any way. The numerous stories of general building show clearly that a lot of pros just couldnt give a damn. DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since you get to live with the results of your work.
NT
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[ DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since
you get to live with the results of your work.
NT No its called blissfull ignorance. the commments from owain and A hall and others are really just an attemp to justify their personal point of view. As for a cartel to raise price that is completely ridiculous there are thousands of registere electrical installers amd they compete for work so how does that jack u prices?. I have not raised any of my prices after spending about 500 o registration and a bit more on incidental costs, it isn't necessary an my prices are extremely competitive when compared with the market rate. don't need to advertise as my business comes from recommendation an repeat business so I must be doing it right. What you do display is complete ignorance of the day to day work of installation and a contemp for trades men generally which is neither justified nor correct. personally used to earn a great deal more as a senior engineer in a international company than I earn now or am likely to do but I am conten to earn a living and get satisfaction from a safe installation well done You on the other hand remind me as being the epitome of the saying, " man who keeps his counsel may be suspected of being a fool, but when h opens his mouth, he removes all doubt
-- Miketew
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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:48:13 +0100, Miketew

Not really. The statistics on the (lack of) dangers are there for anybody to read and are from independent sources as well as the government's own sources.

There is a direct link between supply, demand and price. We know that large numbers of electricians are not registering and are not continuing with electrical work. There is an inevitability that reduction in supply of "qualified" electricians together with some people no longer doing their own work will lead to an increase in demand and in price.
Cowboys will continue as before.

Possibly, or it could be that customers don't know any better and there is a shortage of supply. What does "competitive" mean? That you are the lowest bidder? Anybody can sell on low price and some people are stupid enough to buy on this basis. It is no indicator of quality of work.

I dont think that anybody here has a contempt for good and honest tradesmen. If you are feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion, I would put it to you that the issue lies with you.
Besides, do you honestly expect in a DIY newsgroup that you are going to get wide support for a position promoting hiring of tradesmen to do electrical work which people can do perfectly safely as evidenced by the lack of problems?
The dividing line between what is exempt and what is not in Part P is purely arbitrary. It is completely illogical to suggest that somebody is competent to add a socket to a spur or replace a length of wiring but not competent to install a ring final circuit. The idiots will screww up either way, and the capable will get it right. This is independent of any legislation or the impact of that on what a trade electrician might hope to gain out of it.

So you're a charitable organisation now? You'll have us in tears in a a minute.
--

.andy

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Miketew wrote:

You dont seem to be following this. There are 2 issues, and the above does eliminate that one. Knowledge/ignorance is the other issue, however the death statistics from fixed wiring show this is simply not a problem IRL. The truth that bods like you dont like to admit is that there is so much safety margin built into our wiring regs that even when people get it wrong, as they do, the death rate stays very close to zero. Again, can you tell us the annual death rate in Britain from fixed wiring? Its kinda a key question here.

attempt
This topic has been discussed here in much more depth than your muddled comments.

up
Its called supply and demand, basic economic concepts. Also theres the cost of part pee inspections.

ans
rate. I

so the demand for your services is way above that in a healthy free market, where businesses must advertise and compete.
And your business skills are so poor that you work for less than you know you can easily get if you do a little advertising.

Funny really.

wrong again. Im not that impressed with the kind of stuff you come out with, nor with the assorted rogues that we all know feature among tradesmen. But no, no contempt for tradesmen generally. If they can do a sensible job, as many can, respect. Its part of what I do, and I dont feel any contempt for myself. :)

content
done.
A
he
Sometimes ad hominem is all thats left.
NT
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snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk wrote:

Quite. You could probably walk into any house that's more than a couple of years old, and find all sorts of non compliant practice. I have never heard of a house fire as a result of fixed wiring errors. Plenty as a result of daisy chained 13A adaptors etc however.
And to put things into perspective, I can walk into *any* corner shop during October and November and purchase something that can kill, or at the very least blow a limb off. I don't see the 'Office of the Deputy Prime Minister' taking any action over that. (Personally I'm amazed that fireworks are sold to the general public at all).
--
Mark
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opens his mouth, he removes all doubt.[/i][/color]
Sometimes ad hominem is all thats left.
You make it so easy , its obvious that brain, hand and commonsense ar not coincident in your case you absolutely prove the quotation
-- Miketew
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Miketew wrote:

are
If you have any genuine content, and evidence or reasoning to prove any point, please share it with us.
NT
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Miketew wrote:

Then it is better that we educate them instead of blindly wibbling on about Part Pee, so that such people can make an informed decision about what to do, instead of thinking that we're unhelpful yes-men for nanny Prescott.
> I dont like part P and anyone with sense can see

No, encouraging people to conform with Part P is irresponsible when that leads to dangerous practices like extension leads etc.
Owain
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Miketew wrote:

Not necessarily. As I've mentioned in another thread recently, NAPIT (the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers) have advertised a Part P scheme aimed at qualified individuals working on their own property or doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows you to self-certify up to eight notifications per year for a reduced membership fee (GBP 185 pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial assessment). I'm still waiting for them to reply to my e-mail asking for full details.
See also http://www.electricaltimes.co.uk/news/article.asp?articleid@94

Others have reported inspection being required at first-fix stage, so I wouldn't be so sure about saying that.
--
Andy

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Andy Wade wrote:

Very interesting - good job you reposted the info, because I must have missed your original thread. I'd be intersetd to hear what details you get from them, as there is not much on their website.
Cheers
Chris
--
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