Hoist /Winch ... what do you think?

[Osprey]

Hi team =85.. I have a boat trailer (twin axle) which has a boat on it wei= ghing 1600Kg. On the flat I can happily pull & push trailer is a straight line - so roll= ing resistance is not too high. I have to manoeuvre the boat into a boat shed after each use =85 and for a = number of reasons I can=92t use a car other than for getting in aprox right= position.

The problem is 2 fold =85 there is a slight incline until the wheels get = onto the boatshed floor (requiring a lot of effort) =85. And being a twin a= xle trailer it is very hard to move it =91sideways=92 on single axle it=92s= fine, you simply see-saw back and forth over a short distance to move side= ways - but on twin axle the rear wheels =91crab over=92 as front one trace = the arc, and then it is very hard to move.

If I have a mate with me it=92s fine, but it certainly can=92t be done sing= le handed.

An option I have thought of is using an electric winch, clipping winch cabl= e onto rear axle =85 my thoughts are that the winch then provides the effor= t of the =91pull=92 .. and all I have to do is then put the effort into = steering the jockey wheel. I have 220V ac there so =91maybe=92 I could use a remote control mains =91= lift/hoist=92 =85such as =85

could even set a single snatch pulley block into a fixing into concrete f= loor to make pull =91better=92

My Q is =85. Does this sound logical ? =85=85=85=85 for these winches they = quote vertical lift load of 250Kg =85 (to 11.5m high) so not sure how (if i= t does) relate to a horizontal pull capability =85. This is a rolling load= not dead lift, but hard to know how to estimate how much =91pull=92 force = would be needed. The other option is the 12V 4x4 recovery winches =85 more than enough pull,= but as this would be fitting in building (not on a vehicle) no high curren= t 12V source (OK I could buy a battery=85 but 240V seems so much easier)

I did ask a question a while back, and that sent me in direction of =91Powe= red jockey wheel=92 & caravan =91power movers=92 =85 but all suitable ones = were in the US only. =20 Such as these -

anybody has an interesting way of making a powered version of one of= these ? =85..

[meow2222]

eighing 1600Kg.

lling resistance is not too high.

a number of reasons I can=92t use a car other than for getting in aprox rig= ht position.

t onto the boatshed floor (requiring a lot of effort) =85. And being a twin= axle trailer it is very hard to move it =91sideways=92 on single axle it= =92s fine, you simply see-saw back and forth over a short distance to move = sideways - but on twin axle the rear wheels =91crab over=92 as front one tr= ace the arc, and then it is very hard to move.

ble onto rear axle =85 my thoughts are that the winch then provides the eff= ort of the =91pull=92 .. and all I have to do is then put the effort int= o steering the jockey wheel.

=91lift/hoist=92 =85such as =85

I could even set a single snatch pulley block into a fixing into concrete= floor to make pull =91better=92

y quote vertical lift load of 250Kg =85 (to 11.5m high) so not sure how (if= it does) relate to a horizontal pull capability =85. This is a rolling lo= ad not dead lift, but hard to know how to estimate how much =91pull=92 forc= e would be needed.

l, but as this would be fitting in building (not on a vehicle) no high curr= ent 12V source (OK I could buy a battery=85 but 240V seems so much easier= )

wered jockey wheel=92 & caravan =91power movers=92 =85 but all suitable one= s were in the US only. =20

of these ? =85..

how much pulling force, if a person can lift 50kg, 2 people can exert 10=

0kg force. A lot of people max out at less. Its quite approximate of course= , but a 250kg hoist should provide enough force, I don't think there's much= likelihood of each person moving it with 125kg of force :)

NT

[Chris Holmes]

it weighing 1600Kg.

o rolling resistance is not too high.

r a number of reasons I can=92t use a car other than for getting in aprox r= ight position.

s get onto the boatshed floor (requiring a lot of effort) =85. And being a = twin axle trailer it is very hard to move it =91sideways=92 on single axle = it=92s fine, you simply see-saw back and forth over a short distance to mov= e sideways - but on twin axle the rear wheels =91crab over=92 as front one = trace the arc, and then it is very hard to move.

single handed.

cable onto rear axle =85 my thoughts are that the winch then provides the e= ffort of the =91pull=92 =A0 =A0.. and all I have to do is then put the effo= rt into steering the jockey wheel.

ns =91lift/hoist=92 =85such as =85

> I could even set a single snatch pulley block into a fixing into concre= te floor to make pull =91better=92

hey quote vertical lift load of 250Kg =85 (to 11.5m high) so not sure how (= if it does) relate to a horizontal pull capability =A0=85. This is a rollin= g load not dead lift, but hard to know how to estimate how much =91pull=92 = force would be needed.

ull, but as this would be fitting in building (not on a vehicle) no high cu= rrent 12V source =A0 (OK I could buy a battery=85 but 240V seems so much ea= sier)

Powered jockey wheel=92 & caravan =91power movers=92 =85 but all suitable o= nes were in the US only.

e of these ? =85..

> Re how much pulling force, if a person can lift 50kg, 2 people can exert =

100kg force. A lot of people max out at less. Its quite approximate of cour= se, but a 250kg hoist should provide enough force, I don't think there's mu= ch likelihood of each person moving it with 125kg of force :)

Caravanning types sometimes have remote control gubbins which allow them to steer the caravan around very easily. obviously you'd need a battery on the trailer, but I don't know how the rest of the gubbins would compare time / price wise with what you are proposing.

C

[Bill]

In message , Chris Holmes writes

I'm always too wordy.

I've been asking about winches here (and there!) so this is a little story about how far I've got. I just needed something to help move a

4-wheel trailer without the boat on it over some rough ground into and out of a good winter storage space. To park it last winter we used the Disco in low range, with a bit of help from a manual chain hoist used horizontally to a tree. This worked, but was annoying because the chain kept jamming. I asked here about "Champion" aka "Warrior" winches to mount on the towbar of the Disco. These seemed excellent, but the towbar mounting was almost as expensive as the winch, so I went onto ebay and bought a very, very cheap Chinese towbar winch. The seller had modified it to use as a hoist to get a log splitter into the back of his van, but had found it to be too slow. As a hoist, he had made it reversible (by swapping polarity of the 12volts), and disabled the clutch and ratchet. With help here I found a clutch material manufacturer to provide the replacement for the pad that had stuck to the plate, and have modified it back to winch. As a winch I can declutch and pull out the cable, then hook up, engage the clutch and pull away.

The basic winch comes with a wired remote control, and a power cable with 2 croc clips to connect to the battery. The power cable is about

1/4 the length of the Disco, which appears to be about standard for these winches, and pretty stupid.

I've tested temporarily using jump leads and it works fine, and the sort of keyhole plate that hooks over the towbar seems good and simple, although the winch does droop alarmingly until under tension.

At this stage, the day came when we had to get the trailer out, so I brought the jump leads, the winch, a pulley and a strop for round the tree. This last was actually a luggage strap from Poundland - big mistake as the sewing on it is poor and erratic and SWMBO seems to have taken her bat and needles home wrt anything to do with boats. The concept was to tie the rope to the back of the trailer, take it through the pulley on the tree and lead it to the jockey wheel where a son would pay it out and fine-steer. I would juggle the Disco and winch to pull forwards and coarse steer. I had just got the admittedly tangled rope out, and the jump lead assembly onto the path when son declared that it was too difficult to sort the rope out and he didn't mind me demolishing a few of his bushes to do a straight tow out with the Disco, so we tried that and about an hour later, we had juggled the trailer out onto the path.

Really, I was overtaken by time and hadn't got anything fully ready, but the dummy runs indicate that this should be feasible next year. Internally, the winch seems hardly used, and this towbar mounting means that for light loads, the Disco doesn't have to be absolutely straight with the pull. I'm trying to find a cheap way of wiring up the Disco permanently for a winch at the back, but everyone seems to have had the battery cables out of old Mini's already.

We all thought that the electric jockey wheel movers were a bit lightweight, and dangerous for use on rough ground. I looked at the wheel driven caravan mover of a nearby caravanner, but it was very expensive and during the parking of our trailer at one stage we had just one wheel and the jockey wheel touching ground.

I realise none of this answers the question, but maybe it will trigger some sort of thought. One question that springs to my mind is whether the hoists pointed to by the OP work well as winches, or are there differences in the clutch/control mechanisms. As you can tell, I'm no expert.

[Roger Mills]

I somehow don't think that caravan movers would take very well to being submerged in salt water every time you launch/recover the boat!

[Roger Mills]

jockey wheel?& caravan ?power movers? ? but all suitable ones were in the US only.

You can get similar ones in UK. Which ones did you look at, and why were they unsuitable?

With a powered jockey wheel, you *do* have to make sure that you've got enough weight on the hitch to prevent wheelspin - but that shouldn't be too big a problem if you're on firm ground and only trying to move up a gentle slope.

[Rick Hughes]

You are right there are caravan units these bolt onto axle and drive the wheels via a knobbly roller .... but Because the trailer gets dunked in saltwater I ruled out these.

[Rick Hughes]

so not just me looking for such a solution.

[Rick Hughes]

I found units that have to permanently attached to trailer (no good for launching) ... the only other was quoted for a caravan weight that was much less than trailer .... if you know of any UK ones let me know.

A powered mover / jockey wheel would seem to be best solution ... a

240v one would be even better

[Roger Mills]

Is this any good?

appears that the basic caravan mover isn't made any more, but second-hand ones are bound to be available on Ebay.

My interpretation of what it says is that they will still make one-off industrial movers - doubtless at a price!

I don't know whether the industrial ones can be mains operated. The caravan ones pretty certainly can't - because people need to use them in the field, so to speak.

If you're only using it on firm ground with only a slight gradient, it may not matter if your trailer is above its official weight limit. At any rate, it wouldn't do any harm to discuss your application with these people.

[F Murtz]

make one of these.

[Nthkentman]

Hi team ?.. I have a boat trailer (twin axle) which has a boat on it weighing 1600Kg. On the flat I can happily pull & push trailer is a straight line - so rolling resistance is not too high. I have to manoeuvre the boat into a boat shed after each use ? and for a number of reasons I can?t use a car other than for getting in aprox right position.

The problem is 2 fold ? there is a slight incline until the wheels get onto the boatshed floor (requiring a lot of effort) ?. And being a twin axle trailer it is very hard to move it ?sideways? on single axle it?s fine, you simply see-saw back and forth over a short distance to move sideways - but on twin axle the rear wheels ?crab over? as front one trace the arc, and then it is very hard to move.

If I have a mate with me it?s fine, but it certainly can?t be done single handed.

An option I have thought of is using an electric winch, clipping winch cable onto rear axle ? my thoughts are that the winch then provides the effort of the ?pull? .. and all I have to do is then put the effort into steering the jockey wheel. I have 220V ac there so ?maybe? I could use a remote control mains ?lift/hoist? ?such as ?

could even set a single snatch pulley block into a fixing into concrete floor to make pull ?better?

My Q is ?. Does this sound logical ? ???? for these winches they quote vertical lift load of 250Kg ? (to 11.5m high) so not sure how (if it does) relate to a horizontal pull capability ?. This is a rolling load not dead lift, but hard to know how to estimate how much ?pull? force would be needed. The other option is the 12V 4x4 recovery winches ? more than enough pull, but as this would be fitting in building (not on a vehicle) no high current

12V source (OK I could buy a battery? but 240V seems so much easier)

I did ask a question a while back, and that sent me in direction of ?Powered jockey wheel? & caravan ?power movers? ? but all suitable ones were in the US only. Such as these -

anybody has an interesting way of making a powered version of one of these ? ?.. will withstand continued immersion, but one of these might

[Rick Hughes]

If I could find a suitable gearbox it would be a good winter project

[Rick Hughes]

Swapped a mail with the company this morning .... he gave a really good response ... see below .... He does not make these any more ... looked on eBay £500+ for 2nd hand .......... seems crazy price Maybe I need a retired fitter ... who wants a manufacturing project

I understand your problems completely, they have been there ever since twin axles were introduced. I have attached some details of the problems of moving trailers. Until trailer manufacturers accept that turning a vehicle with four fixed wheels is like trying to drive a car with no turning wheels! it is amazing that we all continue to buy such a ridiculous piece of kit. Lunar caravans did offer a few years ago a twin axle caravan with a hydraulic system that pushed one pair of the wheels downwards, enough to lift the other two off the ground. This made it as easy as any single axle caravan/trailer to manoeuvre.

It didn't catch on, no doubt due to the added cost. It doesn't need a hydraulic system, all it needs is for one pair to have a free steering motion which can be locked into a straight position once any manoeuvring has been completed. To my knowledge this has never been produced, perhaps one day the trailer manufacturers will catch up with the demand for a four wheel system that can be steered easily.

Using one of our Shifta's may help you if you address the rotating hitch problem and convert it to "fixed" which is what all modern caravans are. Hitch and trailer manufacturers carry on making rotating hitches without any knowledge as to why they rotate, Avonride even make a model which does not rotate but when asked why? They have no idea, it seems someone who has long since left the company designed it and it was not used on all the other heads they make. The mind boggles!!

So Rick I am afraid you are one of thousands of trailer owners who have a serious problem that the industry does not want to address as long as people still buy what they choose to make.

I once asked Al-Ko Kober who buy our machines and make 90% of all chassis on caravans, why they still fitted rod and drum brakes instead of discs and hydraulics as all cars since the 30's have converted to hydraulics and discs have been around since the 70's, so 40+ years ago. Their answer was that "it would cost a lot for tooling to change the system" I pointed out that surely after 50+ years they could do with new tooling anyway, they just laughed. It is apathy in the industry and it is the same disease that brought about the downfall of the motorcycle industry here.

One day some enterprising company will design a new breed of trailer/caravan chassis which will incorporate modern brakes and hitch heads with all round suspension and damping just the same as the most basic cars. Plus a steering mechanism for the four wheeled versions. When this happens I am afraid it will come either from Germany or even the Japanese who seem to be the inovaters these days.

I know a lot of this will not help you at all but it just illustrates how we have lost our lead in the industrial world and I am sure that neither of us can do anything about it.

We no longer manufacture our Shifta machines as I have retired, your only chance of buying a machine is to buy a used one. You will need at least a Shifta2 or 3 as the original machine would not be powerful enough for the weight of your trailer. Please read the attachment as trailers are fraught with problems as you can see.

[Jules Richardson]

Personally it's the sort of thing I'd probably use an old lawn tractor for (ditch the mowing deck) as they'd got masses of pulling ability for their size - but then I am in the land 'o big lawns, so there's a ready supply of almost-free old ones that are past their best but would happily do the job.

[Huge]

Forget it in the UK. Even elderly knackered ones are Much Moola here.

[Steve Firth]

They may be cheap in the YooEssHay but they seem expensive all across Europe. My own full size tractor cost me £4500 and it was "quite old" when I got it.

[John Weston]

Caravan types now seem to be migrating to those driving the trailer wheels these days. At least this type avoids the wheel-slip the motorised wheel tow-bar types are prone to, due to lower towbar nose weights. Note that the demo of the one posted earlier only shows it used on concreted flat ground...

I see Powrwheel, who advertise in Caravan mags., do a fully submersible version for boat trailers. see:

- Probably not cheap though... I've not seen one in use and would personally go for a towbar mounted winch on a well anchored tow car to pull the lot up a launching ramp. That way, the motor could be powered as required - and well clear of the water, unless it ended up pulling the tow-car down the ramp :-)

[Bill]

I love the way he in the video has no shoes on. To hold the trigger on the drill, steer and look where you are going would be hard enough. To control a 4-wheel trailer up even the slight slope and crest into the garage/boat shed would certainly scare me. It would be off the ground one minute, bursting its tyres the next.

I honestly think that a towbar mounted or fixed mains winch and a bunch of rope to the other end gives more control and some hope of stopping a runaway trailer.

OT: In the other branch of this thread the Mr Shifta man sounds very like the designer of the small Petter industrial diesel engine(s) we had originally in our boat. The next boat in the yard had Volvo power, and cooling part prices were up in the clouds. My Petter used standard pipe threads, so I just had a trip to B&Q to plumb the exhaust. The retired Petter designer went though all the problems with me and suggested the answers, while bemoaning the state of British engineering companies. Petter had at the time been taken over by Lister and had been run down. Now many years later we are on a Mitsubishi diesel.

[meow2222]

Mini tractors are diyable. I recall seeing a simple homemade design that pi= voted the 2 halves of the chassis, with each half having a fixed axle, and = used a hydraulic pump to power both wheels and to steer by changing the ang= le between the front & rear half. I can't find the link though.

NT