"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:qi10b5$dl5$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me...
It all depends on people leaving a bit enough gap from the car in front that a car on the left or right can move into.
What usually happens is that everyone approaches the slowing traffic and brakes to leave a minuscule gap ahead which no-one can move into. A lot of it is down to lane markings: people tend to think "I'm staying in the same lane so I have priority over people trying to join this lane from another one".
Where you have permanent two-into-one's there is normally an arrow in the lane with least / no priority indicating which lane (the secondary) is merging with the other (the primary).
Round here there is a two lane roundabout where one main route (specifically) exits onto a single carriageway and 'most people' use the zip thing.
This still seems to be accepted when a vehicle has gained some advantage by under/overtaking vehicles queuing (the main traffic track if it was / when it was free flowing) to exit the roundabout as it means the roundabout is kept clear when the lights change in favour of traffic trying to cross the roundabout.
And when the lights are off it all flows much better, in all but the busiest parts of the rush hour.
I've seen an instance of that round here on a dual carriageway where the right lane was closed ahead and a car went up onto the grass central reservation with two wheels to overtake the lorry (who was doing said 'sleazy advantage' moderation).
In many cases, especially on fast / dual carriageways they generally give you *plenty* of warning about 1) the speed limit being reduced and 2) the lane being closed. I rarely have any problem obeying both at the first warning sign to 'get ready' for the restriction.
This isn't the case for some though (and generally a minority in a roadwork situation) who totally ignore the signs and continue at speed (say up the inside, effectively undertaking 'at speed') right to the last second, forcing their way into the traffic that *has* behaved correctly / respectfully.
I saw that happen on the M25 the other day were all the traffic was being pushed off at a junction and the Police were waiting in good quantity and scooping up *everyone* who didn't think they should have to join the queue in the single exit lane and hope to push in at the last second.
I would have been equally happy with a flipper arrangement that sent them and their car straight into a crusher. ;-)
The reason I think that is because I've seen people trying to do that down the outside of first one then two lines of traffic queing to get off a motorway, only to find they were unable to force their way in at the last knockings and end up stationary on a live lane of a busy motorway. If it were a foreigner or someone lost you might have more sympathy but it is obvious from their vehicle, the number and age / gender of the occupants and the make / model of vehicle that they were just trying it on.
Cheers, T i m
p.s. Anyone not realising in time that there was the single line of queuing traffic would do the 'gentlemanly thing' (as mentioned elsewhere) and indicate their wish to pull in asap (by matching the speed of the queuing traffic) and so demonstrate they weren't
*intentionally* trying to gain any real advantage.
The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry about others gaining an advantage over them.
With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and cooperating with other drivers.
Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise, as there will be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes to overtake. Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without any dog in the manger attitudes.
"Roger Hayter" snipped-for-privacy@hayter.org wrote in message news:1obopyw.he9kuz2mykezN% snipped-for-privacy@hayter.org...
The alternative is that everyone needs to drop back a bit to create a gap ahead them that a car from the adjacent lane will be able to pull into. I tend to move into the lane that is still open fairly early, so I'm not having to do it at the last minute, but I make sure I co-operate with other people who want to wait until they've got a bit closer and slower. My experience is that the vast majority of people get into the correct lane early (*), and it is *comparatively* rare to get people storming past and then trying to bully their way in at the last possible moment.
Normally on a motorway where there's been an accident, you get a rash of last-minute braking as everyone slows down, maybe to a virtual halt, to let people in from the lane that is closed a few yards ahead of them, and then once you get past that pinch point you accelerate to a sensible speed (faster than a crawl but a lot slower than 70) as you pass the accident.
I remember a junction in Wakefield where two oncoming streams of traffic turned left (for one stream) and right (for the other) so they ran alongside and then joined together (this one
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seen before the change - apologies for the jerky motion of the stop-motion film). Originally it was treated as a T junction: the stream that had traffic coming from their right had to give way. Then it was replaced in the 1970s with a sign "adjust speed and weave" to encourage zip-merging. The traffic queues *for both streams* increased dramatically - it was the worst of all worlds for everyone. I'm not sure they ever changed it back, though. They probably put lights there eventually which can be better at peak times when you may have to stop but you may alternatively be able to keep going at normal speed knowing that you don't have to co-operate with another stream of traffic. That's why in the UK we try to make sure at junctions one stream always has priority over the other according to well-understood rules (eg priority from right at T junctions and roundabouts, my turn/your turn at traffic lights). I never got the hang of 4-way-stop junctions in the US because I could never remember what order we had arrived in and resented having to stop even if I was the only car. On the other hand, I was a dab hand with their "rotaries" or "traffic circles" because I was familiar with roundabout rules (just apply them in mirror-image).
Letting a car merge ahead of me is one of those situations where I favour flashing my headlights to give the other car a *positive* signal (rather than the absence of a negative signal) that I'm letting him in. I think a
*possibly* ambiguous signal is better than no signal at all which leaves the other driver thinking "is he or isn't he letting me in?". But the Highway Code deprecates flashing your lights as an "I will wait for you" signal. I think it thinks that *no* signal, even one that has no other meaning, is the correct response. I disagree: a signal is needed in just the same way as flashing your indicators to show that you are turning.
As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge early, and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.
In my experience, when there's a 5-mile tailback before the point of merger, it's usually caused by sillybuggers trying to steal a march on the 'lesser mortals', and trying to merge in the last possible microsecond (which also often leads to a prang, making things worse).
In message <qi1fb8$tpn$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me, NY snipped-for-privacy@privacy.invalid writes
The best answer I got was "The first one there has priority to move off first".
The Americans seem to love having to stop unnecessarily - (which might explain their attachment to traffic lights, and why roundabouts are still a bit of a novelty. In mitigation, they do often allow a 'Right turn on red'.
Yes, if they are still in the lane that will be closed soon, not those undertaking you in the soon-to-be-closed lane to gain 3 car places because they think they have a right to.
And that *is* what they are doing when they have had plenty of warning to do as instructed.
Yup.
<snip>
Agreed, where the specific scenario dictates.
eg. A car coming fast down a slip obviously knows the deal and if I drop back to give them more space, the chances are they will take it unprompted.
However, a car coming down the slip and not preparing to match the existing traffic (even treating the slip like a side road off a T junction) may not be 'aware' enough to notice I have taken my foot off the accelerator to give them more space / de-sync our vehicles, but not might they spot a 'please go ahead' flash, and so you end up breaking or accelerating hard to 'manage' their confusion / lack of skill / hesitation.
Agreed ... and one many of the lorry drivers use to indicate 'you are clear of me you can now pull in'.
But then there are flashes and flashes ... ;-(
If I flash someone out (say at a T junction where they are going in my direction, I can see its very clear to their right and there are no gaps behind me) they may not see my indication because they were looking the other way. So I now slow further (in case they did see my offer but are just slow at responding and then pull out) but if they are looking at me and still don't go, that's when they might get the rapid flashes as a 'yes, I'm letting you out get on with it' thing (as I'm now at a halt)? ;-(
I will *sometimes* flash to tell people I'm turning left off say a dual carriageway down a side road that I know it's a difficult one to turn left out of, as I also know you can't rely on indicators alone in that situation (people leaving them on for miles).
Good drivers seem to understand other good drivers (good as in communication, not necessarily following the letter of the HC etc).
Only uncooperative to your interpretation of the rules?
If they merge when or soon after the first warning tells them, THEY are doing the right thing.
Except 'welcome to the real world'. ;-(
Once you have spent any journeys effectively going backwards because some selfish cnuts thinks it's 'perfectly ok' to push in front of you, you will soon get the idea. I have seen people driving off a motorway in a hold up and straight back down onto it again (and forcing their way in), meaning I go backwards another cars length. Try that in a Cinema or McDonalds queue and see how far you get.
Except when people under / overtake those happily merging to then try to increase the restriction throughput to <Max+1> and then it all starts to snarl up.
Because in many cases those still trying to under / overtake right up to the restriction will *also* be speeding. If I have dropped back from 70 to 50 because it tells me there is a lane closed ahead, no one should be able to under/overtake me?
See above. Ignoring 'mimzers' which we all hate, 'most people' will be still going at whatever the speed limit is for that restriction. It's those who don't obey the limits, or the HC, or how to behave on the public highway (cinema queue) who are causing all the trouble.
Just as those who don't 'get on with it' at lights / junctions that are known to only give you a few seconds or people turning right from a straight on only lane who then pull into the space you would have occupied, had they not sped / undertaken you to get there.
It's all fair in love and war, till you get the ticket for causing an obstruction / stopping on a yellow box etc.
I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not what an arrogant minority are doing.
Agreed. It generally only has to be by a bit (other than for the most extreme of them), just enough to not make it easy to jump the entire queue (especially if you are still moving at a reasonable speed)?
But then I've seen cars (even, not just motorbikes / scooters) go down the outside of a queue of single file traffic, round the wrong side of a bollard / island, over the crosshatching's to get to the few feet of twin lane at the traffic lights. Like everyone waiting to turn right didn't think of doing the same but preferred to obey the rules and respect other drivers.
And then when you do get to the lights yourself, you don't make it by one (their) car. ;-(
That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.
Not me, I look where I am going so can come to a gentle well planned stop with a gap ahead of me. If in a more urgent stop, you can always make room once the vehicles ahead move do move off.
I do agree. Incidently, I was on a bus this morning as a passenger. I saw the bus coming from quite a long way away, because I thought he had flashed his headlights at an on coming bus, to concede right of way, except his headlights kept on flashing perfectly regularly as would his indicators. When he stopped to pick me up, I told him about the headlights, but after a quick check of his dashboard, he carried on and drove off. I think he got fed up of others pulling out in front of him, because he only got half a mile, before he got out, went to the front, looked, decided I was correct, rang in to cancel his run and transferred his passengers to a following bus. One of those rare happenings, but quite dangerous if headlight flashing is misinterpreted.
With cooperation the whole of the traffic flows much more smoothly, more quickly, more safely and with much less stress all round. Unfortunately some don't cooperate well and others are just oblivious of traffic situations and wade in completely blind.
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