General musing - how long would you expect modern appliances to last?

[David]

This thought prompted by a water leak on our dishwasher.

We had a new kitchen about 8 years ago. The extractor hood lasted about 5 years then I had to replace it.

The dishwasher is now leaking and the question is how much to repair and how long the machine would be expected to last after that. Choice of repair or replace. It could be something very simple, or not. Experience suggests that if I start taking it apart it may be "interesting" to return it to the "working but leaking" state.

So how long should appliances last these days, and how often are they worth repairing.

Back in the day washing machines, for example, were mainly mechanical and could be expected to last for decades with the occasional new drive belt, set of brushes, door seal etc. I haven't worked on one for a decade or so. In cost terms white goods were relatively expensive and worth the time and effort to repair.

These days it seems that you can often replace electronic devices for less than the repair.

Just had a quick look at the Which? reviews and 3 of the top 5 are by Miele and the cheapest is £1,130! That makes a repair look attractive!

As usual they don't seem to review Lamona products even though Howdens are a massive kitchen supplier.

The recommended Bosch is £669 which seems a more reasonable target.

Ah, well.

Anyway, how long would the team expect a fan oven, built in microwave, washing machine, dishwasher, fridge freezer or hob to last these days?

Cheers

Dave R

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Blimey, much depends on usage I'd suggest. In the case of stuff dealing with the wet stuff, its been my experience about 7 or so years before you get to the call outs versus renewal is a difficult choice. Trouble is that nobody knows when you buy something what the spares supply and cost is like. All I'll say is that call outs now around here are 70 quid a go, so blame the virus, but it certainly makes you realise that about three of those on a washing machine will render it cheaper to get a new one. Same with fridge freezers. I'm managing with my occasional flood machine as it is still working but actively looking for something new. Its about a decade old. The previous Hitachi lasted twice that long. Brian

[Tim Lamb]

In message [e-mail]>, David [e-mail] writes

More than 10 years if supplied by Bosch, Siemens, Panasonic, Neff etc.

[Andy Burns]

I had all those except dishwasher when I did my kitchen (2006?)

microwave has had a new turntable motor, oven has had a new element, washer/dryer now makes the odd graunch, if any of them died I wouldn't be too upset at 14 years

[Theo]

A while back I found some old Which? magazines.

Back in 1984, a decent cooker was £400.

In today's money that's £1300.

Which some repairs and TLC, the Miele cooker we bought in 1985 is still operational. In today's money that's £37 per year. (I don't know what the price was originally, but we probably paid £600 in repairs over the years - repairing after a lightning strike zapped the controls was expensive). The other appliances from 1985 are all still functioning, and the Electrolux fridge from 1979, although some parts aren't working as well as new.

Today you can buy a cooker for £150, and the £37 per year rule suggests that oven will last for about four years.

It doesn't really work like that, but this gives you an idea of how much appliances are cost-optimised these days. Obviously a lot of cost has been taken out by assembly improvements, but costs have also been cut on the components. And of course built-in obsolesence is a thing.

Plus back in 1984 manufactured goods were more expensive and labour comparatively cheaper which made repair economic. Nowadays the factories are highly automated, and if you have to pay £100 callout that's the cost of a budget new machine right there. DIY helps a lot here.

Ask Miele for the parts prices - make sure you have a stiff drink to hand.

Part of this is that the parts section of (in particular) Miele has to stand alone as a business. So, while they actually still stock parts for 35 year old machines, the prices are a lot because the warehousing costs (and there isn't a competitive ecosystem for spares).

Cheaper is looking for bits on ebay, or stripping a scrap machine for parts.

Lamona are just a whitelabel of Beko, Candy, etc - the bottom tier. Find the cheapest appliance in Argos and that's what you're looking at.

I haven't any direct experience of Bosch, but parts and service information looks encouraging.

The 'right to repair' movement will hopefully help with encouraging this info out of Beko and friends. And it would be good to have the software side of things covered too.

It's a law of averages, but at the end of the day I think you still get what you pay for. Not to say you won't be lucky and get 10 years out of a Hotpoint or Beko, but when it breaks it may not be fixable.

Theo

[newshound]

I more or less agree with all that. I've been buying Bosch dishwashers and washing machines and reckon they give the right balance of performance / longevity / price. Six years plus for life with fairly heavy use. Some might say that's not very long but washing machine performance has improved a great deal over the past 30 years IMHO. Similarly for (say) TVs.

Just bought a Samsung fridge, hope to get ten years out of it.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Right, DIY makes a really massive difference. It not only saves the cost of the labour of a call out, but often you can spot a problem developing which might have been ignored, avoid it, save money on the problem causing more major damage.

I feel sorry for the types who will not even dare attempt a repair.

[tabbypurr]

Fan ovens can happily last several decades. Some old microwaves likewise. WMs & DWs seem to be variable, some make 20 years, more don't. Freeze fridgers, 2-3 decades if they're ok to start with. Hobs: if electronic controls, 5 minutes. If switches 1-2 decades. If old, 3-4 decades.

To get those lifetimes you do need to use a buying policy aimed at maximising appliance life. So all used goods, nothing that puts trend before practical, nothing pretentious. Too many people buy new crap instead.

NT

[F Murtz]

On 27/10/20 6:52 am, David wrote: I have a dishwasher that on rare occasions trips the whole house on earth leakage so I just fire up the portable gen and connect the washer up which completes the cycle and clears the fault.(I think it is something about how I pack it)

[The Natural Philosopher]

You have two choices. £1000 Miele that lasts for 20 years, or a £200 POS from italy or turkey that lasts 4.

I paid about 600 for my miehle dishwasher tho. Made in Czech Republic, not Germany

is the same model as I have but white rather than stainless.

So far (3 yrs) its been pretty good.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No,Bosch is POS. And indeed so are most of those. On dishwashers anyway.

Cookers soldier on - they are simple beasts mostly

My fridge freezer is coming up to 20 years now - Liebherr - seals need replacing and I have replaced a lot of broken plasticky bits, like trays and shelves. Cheap Beko one is fine after 3 years so far.

I would say of all white goods dishwashers are far and away the worst - used daily, and complex,with washing machines running second.

Fridges just go on until they are internally smashed, the seals go or they get a gas leak.

Cookers last until the owner gets bored repairing them.

Microwaves - well until something major goes in the magnetron or power supply, they just work.I junked my Sanyo after 25 years after it sparked and made an Awful Smell. Could have been just the mains filter cap, but I couldn't be arsed.

[Fredxx]

It can save time too. I recently changed the bearings in min and it probably took me 30 minutes. The bearings are accessible from the back and can be changed without moving the drum. Faffing around buying a replacement would take me more time and probably 15x the cost.

I actually get annoyed whenever anyone says the "can't" repair an item which could be easily repaired. It smacks of laziness. Often all that is required is some online research, or even asking a question on a group like this.

[Tim Streater]

Some people need to be kept well away from attempting repairs.

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Fredxx presented the following explanation :

Yes, I agree with all of that. I simply could not afford all that I have, were it not for the fact that I save so much money by fixing things myself without the long wait and expense of having to call someone in.

What I save, also helps pay for some decent tools.

[Dave Liquorice]

Over the years I've had Hotpoint washing machines expire past 20 years. Current one is at least 10. Sharp microwave did 20+, it's replacement was junked 'cause the turntable plate got "accidentally" broken at >10 years (yes, I did look for a replacement turntable plate without success). Cheap Zannussi "temporary" cooker is 10 years old (1 x grill element replaced), upright freezer > 10, fridge freezer about 5 it's predecessor I felt "disappointed" by a twin compressor model, the electronic controls developed a weird fault in that it would think the fridge was "warm" when it wasn't and would thus turn it into a freezer. All the important bits of compressors etc worked fine, just couldn't find what the fault was, that may have done 15 years. The "basics" small chest freezer is fine but that's only 3.

[tabbypurr]

Plus a degree of aptitude most just don't have. There are plenty of people that really can't do the process.

NT

[spuorgelgoog]

I believe that dishwashers from China are about £50 when ordered by the containerload.

I got just less than 5 years from a Currys Basic fridge/freezer; a replacement compressor would be more than I paid for the fridge, and fitting and regassing would probably be double that again.

If the manufacturer won't offer a >5 year guarantee, they aren't confident it'll last that long.

Owain

[Fredxx]

Aptitude can be learnt. Obviously some can't, or don't want to learn.

[Theo]

Water, electrics, heat and heavy spinning things aren't necessarily a great starting point for learning, I admit. Worries about fire or flood don't help.

Plus a lot of appliances are physically difficult to work on - awkward to get inside, hard to pull out, etc. Some people aren't strong enough.

But one of the issues with built-in obsolescence is the repair pathway has withered. Decades ago there was a repair shop in every town, and someone could easily pop round to 'take a look'. Now you call the Beko/whoever call centre and they'll send a technician out from three counties away - there's where your £100 callout goes.

Theo

[fred]

Cheap machines are all very well but the faffing involved in replacing a built in fridge or dishwasher is a pita.

We had a Phillips larder fridge with a 'Lifetime' guarantee. Failed after 10 years and they offered a replacement at a reduced cost