Fully enclosed shower cabinet against rough stone wall?

[mikehalmarack]

Current bathroom walls are of mixed stone and brick. Previous attempts at wall tiling have produced poor results, with tiles frequently blown off by damp. consequently the existing shower area is a shambles.

I'm considering stripping the wall surface back to the original limestone and putting a fully enclosed quadrant shower cabinet in the corner.

I can't decide whether it's best to fit it fairly tight to the wall, then make the best of bodging the gaps, or to leave as much space as possible between the cabinet and wall to allow for cleaning and maintenance access (which won't be a lot).

Maybe if it is fitted fairly close to the stone walls and an effective way of sealing the gaps is found an air brick could be fitted into each of the wall areas covered by the shower cabinet walls, to help prevent unwanted dampness and mould occurring.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

[Tricky Dicky]

You really want to cure your damp problems first. If you are already down t o the brickwork, I would cover the wall part of the shower enclosure with a qua panels mounted on battens which allow you to pack the battens out verti cal. Using battens will leave an air gap which will help ventilate behind t he aqua panels and help with your damp problems. Use treated timber for the battens and plastic wedges for packing to minimise transmission of damp th rough the wall. You can then tile directly onto the aqua panels.

Richard

[Nthkentman]

Current bathroom walls are of mixed stone and brick. Previous attempts at wall tiling have produced poor results, with tiles frequently blown off by damp. consequently the existing shower area is a shambles.

I'm considering stripping the wall surface back to the original limestone and putting a fully enclosed quadrant shower cabinet in the corner.

I can't decide whether it's best to fit it fairly tight to the wall, then make the best of bodging the gaps, or to leave as much space as possible between the cabinet and wall to allow for cleaning and maintenance access (which won't be a lot).

Maybe if it is fitted fairly close to the stone walls and an effective way of sealing the gaps is found an air brick could be fitted into each of the wall areas covered by the shower cabinet walls, to help prevent unwanted dampness and mould occurring.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Have a look here

Then decide how best to form a frame and use expanded foam behind the sheets

[mikehalmarack]

It's an old stone cottage. I've been reading about modern damp proofing options as opposed to the need to let traditional stone walls breathe, so I have a dilemma.

I'm currently tempted to strip the bathroom walls back to the bare stone and either leave them that way, or get them re plastered with traditional lime plaster, then paint with a breathable paint.

I haven't read of a way to successfully tile such a wall without using modern damp proofing methods which then apparently has a knock on effect of increasing the overall damp problem by not allowing the walls to breathe fully.

I'd quite like to Aqua panel the walls then tile because that's the sort of finish I'm used to. But I'm not sure if this would be the best approach. I guess the air space between the Aqua panels and the old stone wall could be adequately ventilated to prevent any build up of moisture.

[mikehalmarack]

[...]

Thanks. The panels look good. Are you suggesting using battens for framework then filling the voids behind the panels with expanding foam, or using the expanding foam in place of the battens to overcome the unevenness of the stone walls?

[Tricky Dicky]

The panels NKM recommended need a suitable substrate to be glued on be it a plastered wall or dry lined wall according to the fitting guides. With dam p coming through the walls there is not much that will adhere to the wall. Have you had someone to look at the cause in solid stone walls re-pointing can alleviate much of the problem. If the wall is below ground level then t anking is the probably the most cost effective. The only problem with tanki ng is you cannot pierce the wall surface in anyway even a screw hole can co mpromise the tanking. You seem to suggest there is a difference of opinion as to wether to damp proof such a wall or let breathe naturally, if you opt for the latter then you are relying on ventilation to remove the damp. As I see it you will need to construct some sort of structure that provides an air gap what you cover that with is up to you but whatever you put in cont act with the wall if it absorbs water it will simply transfer the damp furt her in.

Richard

[stuart noble]

Is the damp coming through from outside, or has it got behind the tiles from shower use?

[mikehalmarack]

Yes, I saw this when I read the PDF associated with the fitting of the panels. It mentioned no option for fitting the panels to a framework of battens, though I suppose this would be possible unless the boards aren't rigid enough.

I get the definite impression that tiles popping off the internal walls is a very common feature of old, rough stone walled cottages, though there'll be exceptions. The pointing on the outside looks pretty good, though its coated with Dulux Weathershield, which may not be the ideal masonry paint for the situation.

It's possible that the outside ground level is a little higher than the internal floor and this could be adjusted. My first choice was initially some form of tanking but the more I read on the subject the more uncertain I became about this as a solution.

Yes, bare, rough stone internal walls in the bathroom doesn't feature in any of the brochures and mags I've seen, perhaps for good reason. I would probably be prepared to take that option though. The question would then remain as the whether the new shower "pod" would best be fitted tight to the wall corner or left with an accessible space.

Perhaps alternatively the bare stone wall of the bathroom could be lime plastered square and smooth to aid in easier fitting of sanitary ware. But are "breathable" lime plaster walls really a practical cure for the problem? I've made one or two costly mistakes in my d-i-y time, but the potential for error here seems greater than usual.

[mikehalmarack]

Most of the areas of tile failure are well away from the current shower cubicle. So it's likely that most of the damp is coming through the walls from outside, or up out of the ground maybe. Some parts of the external walls are rendered and while this looks pretty well intact, it might be of a type that prevents the stone wall from drying out as well as it might.

[meow2222]

cost effective.

nyway even a screw hole can compromise the tanking.

p proof such a wall or let breathe naturally,

the damp. As I see it you will need to construct some sort of

but whatever you put in contact with the wall

Tiles are impermeable, though the grout isnt. I'd be looking first at the c auses of the damp, then tackling the shower produced damp. A dehumidifier i s an efective way to handle shower produced damp in bathrooms, but of cours e its not going to dry out a tiled wall.

Gypsum, water & (tile) cement react to form ettringite, hence why most damp tiles pop off.

Waterproof paint on the outside is certainly not a good thing in such cases . You need the evaporation of damp.

NT

[Tricky Dicky]

I really think you need to find what is the cause of your damp problems, is it coming through the walls, through the ground or due to use as a bathroom? It will cost to get a consultant but is probably cheaper than trial and error.

Richard

[mikehalmarack]

I think you're probably right about the consultant, so I'd better not read anymore web based scare stories about damp experts.

There's very likely some moisture coming through the wall and some up from the ground. The extent to which the large areas of glazed tiling on the internal walls is contributing to the problem is the most significant factor, I imagine. But imagination isn't the best guide.

[mikehalmarack]

[...]

A dehumidifier would probably be a big help. I'll get one of those.

The only easily observable indication that the walls are damp, without using a meter, is that patches of tiles keep popping off. My recent thinking has been, " No tiles, no tile problems". It probably wouldn't end there though.

Well, it's Dulux Weathershield on top and goodness knows what else underneath. Do you think a power washer will blast it back to bare stone? After which it might be better whitewashed, or the modern equivalent.

[damduck-egg]

If the damp coming through the wall can be solved and you still want to put the enclosure close to the wall perhaps you could fill the gap with something decorative. layers of different coloured sands, small sea shells ,decorative gravels or a combination of similar materials.

G.Harman

[meow2222]

I'm convinced he's wrong re consultants. They invariably end up recommending inappropriate & overpriced measures for PPs.

why? Normally with a solid dpc-less wall the evaporation exceeds the rain ingress, so water doesnt get in from outside. And BRE testing has shown that rising damp is a rarity, so not likely.

Ideally you wan a porous outside and an impermeable inside like tiles in a damp location like a bathroom.

NT

[meow2222]

e causes of the damp, then tackling the shower produced damp. A dehumidifie r is an efective way to handle shower produced damp in bathrooms, but of co urse its not going to dry out a tiled wall.

amp tiles pop off.

ses. You need the evaporation of damp.

I dont know. You tell me :)

Modern exterior paints are more or less impermeable, not what you want. I'd stick with traditional lime, its time proven, cheap, easy to work with and effective. It lasts quite well too. The only gotcha is its caustic, handle with suitable care.

Simple lime & water often works nicely. When it doesnt, adding 1% linseed o il can make it stickier.

NT

[newshound]

I have plain aquapanel, with ventilation between that and the stone, behind my kitchen base units and dishwasher / washing machine for exactly this reason.

For my shower, I have melamine faced plywood spaced off from the bare stone, but that bit of wall is dry, I would certainly try to ventilate it if it wasn't. You could perhaps arrange for your shower extractor fan to draw air from the interspace.

[mikehalmarack]

[...]

I don't know if this is the best possible option but it certainly seems like one I can visualise, relate to and achieve.

[mikehalmarack]

OK, but first I need to get a pressure washer.

That's quite reassuring. I've read similar advice on the web but I was hoping to verify it in this NG. Thanks for doing that.

[mikehalmarack]

That sounds like fun and fortunately it's only a ten minute walk to the beach.