FTTP installation

[Dave Liquorice]

That depends... you (generic) are only using the PON (ONT) for an internet connection not for a telecom company provided POTS, that is still on copper, presumably line powered and will work under local power fail conditions.

If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then? Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service. That's not a serious problem for the geeks with UPS's but as you say geeks are in the minority. A great majority of the rest will probably have a mobile and be in blanket coverage areas so the mobile might still work. But that still leaves the significant number of people who don't have a mobile without without telephone service just when they might really need it.

A few hours from an ONT BBU would probably cover the vast majority of powercuts. Provided the batteries are in good condition, which might be a challenge for the non-geeks, techno phobes and, sadly, a lot of the population.

[Scott]

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 00:35:17 +0100, John Rumm wrote: [snip]

As an aside, does a UPS have adverse implications for energy efficiency? I assume power consumption will be minimal, but will it be enough to cancel out the other power-saving measures built into modern electronics?

[Andy Burns]

There is efficiency loss between input and output (might be lower in the non line-interactive models) they tend to act as a small radiator ...

[No Name]

the UPS will not start up on battery only if there is no mains power present....

[Theo]

I wouldn't use LM317s as they're linear regulators, so waste a lot of energy as heat. There are cheap DC-DC converter modules on ebay for a few quid that can make whatever voltage you want, for much better efficiency.

However, if a lot of the gear takes 12V input I suspect it can tolerate the voltage swings of a car battery (since it'll have an internal SMPSU) so you might be safe to just wire all your 12V loads across the battery, perhaps with a low voltage disconnect module (ebay again) to prevent overdischarge. You'd need a charger that could handle all those steady-state loads as well as trickling the battery.

That might be more efficient than two additional voltage conversions in the chain.

Theo

[Dave Liquorice]

I'd look very hard at other makes before getting another APC. They have (had?) a habit of cooking the batteries. Meaning that they'd be knackered enough after 4 years to make the runtime, even at low loads, rather too short, read tens of minutes rather than half a dozen hours. I got pissed off at this "feature" and attacked mine 5 years ago to reduce the charge voltage and fit a fan. The new batteries fitted at that time are still good. Yes, it takes longer to reach the 15% capacity switch on point after switching off due to low battery but I'm not getting through batteries...

That runtime is normally quoted for full load.

A decent UPS won't let you discharge the batteries too far. B-)

That length of time at full load. Mine is sat at 10%, around 50% of that is the HP Microserver. 2 minutes after the supply fails the server shuts down and switches off (UPS is there to maintain the VOIP phones rather than full net access). The UPS happily runs at 5% ish for hours...

But not gracefully shutdown "remote" computers unless they get their power from that UPS or other maintained supply.

Two losses, your fogetting the DC-DC conversion via a very lossy linear convertor, especially for 5 V devices. You could mitigate that a bit by using a switching DC-DC convertor.

Not quite as simple as it sounds, the generator needs to start, run up to speed and stabilise before its output is switched to the UPS input. I dread to think what UPS would make of being fed from a genset as it starts.

A genset also opens up a whole raft of worm cans regarding connecting a genset to the premesis wiring, earth requirements, not back feeding the grid, etc.

[spuorgelgoog]

The trend is now to move POTS to the router, not the ONT. This means that Openreach just support the ONT, and the ISP just supports the router.

ISPs won't want to support power fail, and they're even reluctant to support voice reinjection from their router to home extension wiring.

Owain

[Andy Burns]

I meant if the smartups was running on battery and beeping ... pressing the "on" button will silence it (and since it's a separate on button, not a combined on/off button, no risk of turning it off).

Also a smartups *will* allow you to turn it on with no mains present (long press the "on" button until it gives a warble, then short press it again).

[Bob Eager]

Dunno. Nothing in the documentation for the three units in use. Nor for a small modified sine wave one that I was given but haven't used.

Difficult to test, since it might turn it off and I wouldn't want that. Normally, it is shut off automatically after it sends 'low battery' to the controlling server, which initiates shutdown and then tells the UPS to go off after a short delay.

I note something in the FAQ on the APC website, so when I get a chance I'll shut everything down on one of them and give it a go.

Thanks - worth knowiung if it works.

[Andy Burns]

I think that reputation is not particularly deserved, yes if left in poorly ventilated places they get hot (and I've seen the resulting distorted batteries and short life) but mine runs at ~30C and the float voltage as measured by a multimeter is is bang-on 54V which is Yuasa's recommendation, allowing for -3mV compensation per degree above 20C.

My last two sets have made 5 years (or rather 4 years 11 months for the last set, I don't allow it to do the regular self-test).

I've had 6-8 hour runs from mine (router, switch, DECT phone, a lowish powered PC that records TV)

When I measured voltage on mine, I was expecting to find it significantly high, but it wasn't, I did knock it down 0.5V but spread over 24 cells I doubt they notice.

[Dave Liquorice]

How does this fit with the PSTN switch off in 2025? What if all you want is voice service, no broadband?

A (brief) google found that the "providers" should have at least one solution that providees a minimum of 1 hour backup in the event of a local power fail. This should be available for free to those "at risk". The providers have an obligation to identify which of their customers are "at risk" and communicate effectively with all customers over the risks of local power failure and solution(s) available.

Can't blame 'em for that. Remember Openreach only support to the test socket on the NTE.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Hadn't heard that...

then you will get fibre, and VOIP and a battery

[Chris Green]

I've certainly never had an issue with either a NAS (I had a WD one for many years) nor with two Linux destop machines which run all the time here. The 'desktop' machine which is my backup system in the garage is set so that it doesn't restart when power is restored but my actual desktop system does restart. We do get the occasional power failure here (a couple of times a year maybe) and, as I've said, I've not had any issues. The desktop has had to run fsck to sort things out I think, but that's all.

[Theo]

Openreach provide a minimalist 500k broadband service (over FTTP or copper). You get a router which is voice-only - no ethernet or wifi. Your ISP then provides your phone service over VOIP. Possibly the connection is firewalled so you can only connect to the ISP's VOIP server, rather than the internet.

You end up with some extra boxes but your analogue phones work as they previously did.

That's the BBU-of-NiMH-cells. Not a lot of use if power is down for days due to storms.

I suspect there will be some pushback about that. There are NTE plates that allow diversion of extensions into the router's analogue phone port, but they don't seem to be supplying them as standard. It's caused a lot of bad feeling from people being given SOGEA without being told.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Some of the cheaper APCs (backups rather than smartups?) have a combined on/off button, rather than separate on and off buttons; with those you give it a 2 second press to silence and have to be careful not to press it too much longer after it gives a double confirmation beep, otherwise you can accidentally turn it off.

[Andrew]

KAspersky on edge doesn't like it either. NO or bad certificate

[Andrew]

And drilled through the wall from the inside, blowing off the render on the outside.

[Andrew]

ehh ?. ISDN was 64K and all the journalists used it to talk to the 'office' and be good enough for broadcast.

[Andy Burns]

circuit switched v.s. packet switched, and possibly the journos used

128kbps channel bonding?

[John Rumm]

I have my UPS conneted to my NAS via USB so they can talk. The NAS is set to do a graceful shutdown when the remaining power in the UPS gets down to ~20%