Free Energy - have you done this ?

Sir
I am looking at ways to make my barn conversion enegry efficient. I am allready adding more insulation then specifed, but want to go further. The site is unsuitable for solar power, as the roof is in shade too much of the day (large oak trees) However I have been looking at windmills and ground heat pumps, I have plenty of ground or even a river for the heat pump, given that there is now planning approval for a HUGE windmill just up the road for me, there must be plenty of wind.
Does anyone have any ideas how you could use the windmill to pump the heat out the ground and store it in a heat store ? Has anybody done this ? We have HUGE ammounts of wood, so will supplment the system with real fires.
Thanks Rick
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The river would be a better idea than the ground. But if you have huge amounts of free wood, with nothing better to do with it, why bother?
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wrote:

The free wood is a limited supply, and an on going pile of work. ground heat, or river heat is unlimited in my life time.
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So cut down enough of the wood to let the light in and then switch to solar.
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Why not use the water in the river to drive a turbine first as it's more reliably there.
However this lot do almost everything and have a lot of information to read up on.
http://www.galeforce.uk.com /
Don't bother with a heat pump. The capital cost just isn't recoverable in a sensible time.
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:04:41 +0100, G&M wrote:

Only if the river has a sensible amount fall on it.

Define "sensible". Seems the OP, like me, does not intend to leave his current property, ever. Payback over 10 to 20 years would be fine.
Got to admit the idea of using renewable energy sources to get even more renewable energy appeals. No useful water here though but plenty of wind...
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I don't think it is for the turbines either, at those prices.
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read
in a

Depends on the time you can run them flat out. But agree, alternative energy isn't exactly always cost effective - unless you haven't got an electricity supply in the first place. Then it looks most attractive.
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The payback period is reduced for me, I have only 60A of electric, and when I put the shower on, the lady up the valley looses her TV picture. We are 1/2 a mile from the road, and can't get a gas or oil tanker down the track ......... This is not too bad for the current 2 bedroom weekend retreat, where a wood fire is fun, but once the extra 3 beds, 2nd bathroom, 3 sitting room is added 60A is not enough power in the winter.
The river can not get ehough head for a turbine.
Prices are MUCH cheeper if you source from outside the UK, for example wind turbines in the US are about 1/3 of the cost ......
Anyways the question remains, have you actually installed one of these things ? How do you link the various system together to overcome the limitations of each. For example when there is no sun, there is almost certanly wind and rain ........
I am worried, I did under floor when before it got big, and I paid top prices compared to today. I think I am about 10 years too early for the prices to be right on this technology .........
Thanks Rick
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Presumably you've looked at green sites, CAT and the like?
I'm interested and would like to support you.
Mary

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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:41:14 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Mary
CAT appear to use their stuff to make electric, I want to make heat. The heat pump basicly sucks heat out of the ground, at an ideal temperature to run underfloor heating. However you can over cool the ground, and it stops working. You can't (easilly) overcool a river, so if I can suck the heat out of the river with free wind driven electric, and store the heat till needed, I have free heating, To me this theory sounds great, but there are a number of issues, which I have no idea how to answer (heat stores run hot, but ground heat is wharm not hot). In summer you don't need much heat, but in winter when wind and river are plentifull you do. To simple old me, who/whatever disigned the world designed it for this application, but us humans appear to have not quite got there yet.
Of course if nobody has done this, then I see a business oppertunity, if I can find a bright person who can make it work ....
Rick
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:24:19 +0100, Rick Dipper

Electricity is probably worth more.

Except the river is likely to be close to surface temperature, a heat exchanger in a deep hole looks at a constant 10C, so there is less temperature difference to make up, and the coefficient of performance varies with delta T.

Why convert it to electricity, just run the compressor when the wind blows. I advertised an unused compressor from a military air conditioning unit free to collector, here some years back, no takers but it ended up in an old water mill in the west country IIRC running as a heat pump.

Well you have heating free of fuel cost, other costs must be considered.
AJH
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:24:19 +0100, Rick Dipper wrote:

Ah right ignore the latter half of my other post wibbling about 10kW 7M wind turbines etc...
Erm why do you need to store the heat? If comes out of the ground at the right level for the heating system, when you want heating you just turn on the pump like you would turn on a boiler. The pump isn't going to take a vast amount of power so why bother with the expense of an unreliable (mechanically and wind) turbine?

But you are pumping the heat not just letting the heat move on it's own accord. True it's low grade out of the ground (river) but I think the pump will push it up quite away.
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That is why superinsulation (less need for a heating system in the first place) and very low temp UFH heating fed from a large thermal store is probably the best approach. A large solar array can generate lots of low temp heat, even in winter. Enough for 4-5 cloudy days. The low temperature stored water can pre-heat the DHW.

You need to store heat for low or no wind days; back to a large thermal store.

But expensive.

Low temperature UFH runS between 30-45C. Solar panels will generate that in winter. Remember of superinsulating the heat demands will be minimal. The problem is high temperayre water for FDHW. In winter on bright sunny days solar pabels can reach 50C and above. This hot water should be directed to a separate cylindner for day use (this DHW can be topped up with an immersion heater), not blended into a large low temp thermal store. The day cylinder is pre-heated by the water in the main thermal store. In summer the whole of the large thermal store can be over 90C (store as much heat as possible), and when the heating season kicks in you have enough heat stored to keep you going for while, and the solar panels will be contributing most of the time.
http://www.solarhouse.com/index2.html
This will give you an idea. The solar array and thermal store has to be sized to suit of course.
This guy has an array on a frame. Quite interesting, but I would not do it exactly like he has done his floor. http://www.daycreek.com

The wind genny would have to be quite large to power a heat pump. The heat pump would need to extracting heat from a stable hot source (a river or deep under ground). Then it would all have to be sized up in relation your house and its heat loss.
A solar array, large water thermal store, very low temp UFH is the best approach, and far more cost effective. Remember you have 60 amps, so electricity can be used although in minimal amounts.
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Many Thanks
I have a direction to go in.
Rick
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The problem is the laws of thermodynamics. It isn't easy to raise the temperature of a fluid that much in one stage, so you need a two stage compressor for most forms of heating, though you may get away with a single stage if your underfloor system is vast and efficient.
Double stage compressors cost over 4000. And still need lots of electricity to drive them as efficiency is less than a single stage. In theory it should be possible to drive some form of compressor from a wind or water turbine but I haven't found one yet. If you do let me know as I have lots of both. Fortunately we can get oil in so we're not in such a bad situation as you sound to be in.
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Mary, will you pass him the tools?
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I'd love to :-)
Mary

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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:47:57 +0100, Rick Dipper wrote:

That should not happen. How far up the valley is this lady? Do you share the same transformer? Thought about contacting the electricity supplier about getting a bigger transformer? This isn't going to be anything like as expensive as getting a feed run in. Indeed they may come out, inspect, and simply change your meter and cutout to bigger ones. Our cutout is 100A, the one on the pole 200A...

Not even one of the mini ones? Most oil suplliers in rural areas have small tankers for getting to difficult places.

You have a massive, normally lead acid but wet NiCDs can be used as well, battery bank or you use the grid as a "battery". That is you install a turbine that more than meets your normal demand and you sell the excess to the grid. When the wind drops or your demand exceeds the capacity of the turbine you take power from the grid. You get paid for the power you feed to the grid and pay for the power you use from it, get the sums and turbine size right you generate more than you use...
To be honest if you talking loads of 10kW I don't think a local battery bank is suitable but the "battery" grid is. It also means that you don't have to install a turbine to cope with the peaks, just your base load plus a surplus. A 10kW wind turbine is quite large (from the galeforce site 10kW has rotor dia of 7m (23')), a 3 or 4 kW one is big but not quite as bad.
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On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:24:06 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"

Vallies with lots of distance and very few people are not economic for the lecie people to upgrade. The lady up the valley is a bit of an old bat, so almost certanly gets the "silly old bat" responce when she phones to complain.

The biggest thing to come along the track is a 4x4 car, else you can't turn, unless its a dry day and you have a 4wd tractor ..
Lovley location, not exactly pratical ..... :-)

I was working on a a 10kW turbine, I guess my way forward is to talk to the lecie board and see what "grid connaect" will cost me, so I can sell back.
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