For inf: DCLG response to Select Cttee on Part P changes

[Robin]

I have belatedly seen that DCLG published earlier this month their response to the report from the Select Committee which adopted the "no price is too high" approach to safety and the Building Regs. FWIW the department have kept open the door to some deregulation. The relevant text is copied below. The full response is at

"CLG Select Committee recommendation 6: From the evidence we received, we are satisfied that Part P has been successful in driving up standards and in reducing the number of electrical faults. We would therefore be reluctant to endorse any diminution of the scope or operation of Part P, which might reverse that trend. We require the Government to seek research and evidence to show that safety would not be reduced. (Paragraph 33)

1. The Government agrees that any changes should not unduly diminish safety. We are still considering proposals to amend Part P put forward in the recent public consultation, which aim to reduce the bureaucracy and costs for electricians and DIY-ers, particularly when doing simpler jobs in the home. The proposed changes are expected to cut down on the number of inspections that local authorities have to carry out and strip away unnecessary cost and bureaucracy while maintaining public safety.

1. As part of the consultation process we are actively seeking all available evidence to ensure that the Final Impact Assessment is as robust as possible."

[NT]

Sounds to me like waffle that allows them to do anything they please later.

NT

[John Rumm]

>> "CLG Select Committee recommendation 6: From the evidence we received,

But has not reduced the number of accidents/injuries/deaths... so what is the point?

[John Rumm]

are they kidding?:

"CLG Select Committee recommendation 11: We recommend that sockets and other electrical equipment sold by DIY stores should carry a health warning that it is illegal for an unregistered person to carry out most electrical works in the home without checks being completed by the Building Control service or, if our earlier recommendation is accepted, by a member of a Competent Person Scheme, acting instead of the Building Control service. This will encourage the general public to use registered electricians, and reinforce the general health and safety message that electrical work can potentially be extremely hazardous. (Paragraph 49) "

Most?

Sounds like they desire it to be like wodney land!

[Brian Gaff]

Well reading that piece of fence sitting makes me feel like saying. How do you legislate for common sense. In other words, how do you stop idiots from killing themselves or others. I don't think you can. Maybe all the money being thrown at legislating against idiots is better spent on education of the public about safety.

Brian

[David WE Roberts]

> Who are they kidding?:

So just like tobacco - don't want to cause the suppliers and retailers pain by banning them so instead they just put a warning on to pretend they are doing something about enforcement.

FFS who buys electrical bits at HomeBase for a sparky to fit? How many people who buy this stuff from the sheds will call in Building Control to inspect the results?

If they were serious they would only allow the unrestricted sale of electrical components to registered Part P electricians/competent persons and require all other purchases to be covered by photo ID and a signature acknowledging the constraints of Part P and supplying name and address of the purchaser (and location of fitting if different) with the intention to run random spot checks for compliance. Coupled with rolling regular inspections of electrical installations to detect unsafe installation (like an MOT) and uncertificated amendments (even if they are safe). They don't even require an electrical safety check for rented property like the annual gas safety check.

However this would impact on sales of electrical fittings and also cost serious money to enforce.

Making the manufacturers print spurious words on the packaging is a no cost option which pretends that they are doing something.

Gah!

Dave R

[Martin Brown]

I think that pretty much sums up the problem in a nutshell.

The sort of DIY idiot that wires up a socket incorrectly or makes up a flex with a plug on each end is not going to be discouraged by health warnings on the packaging. They are usually aware that what they are doing is terminally stupid but then do it anyway. The nasty problem is that the error(s) made can catch out some innocent third party.

Same problem arises with "dangerous" bends where no matter how low they make the official speed limit (typically -10mph per KSI) the morons still pile into the tree/wall/cliff and get killed after losing control at pretty much the same speed as before.

Main problem we have is too many lawyers in government and not enough engineers, scientists or other productive people. They seem to believe that any problem can be solved by the application of verbal sophistry.

[Man at B&Q]

It's marginally better than then actually doing something.

MBQ

[ARWadsworth]

> Who are they kidding?:

So dumb down the whole of the county to a point where they can do nothing for themselves?

[ARWadsworth]

> Who are they kidding?:

That sticker could make things worse.

Someone with very little money could be under the impression that it will then cost them £40 to have an electrician swap a damaged and dangerous socket and so they just leave the old one there and drag the extention lead out of the shed so they do not have to use it.

[Steve Firth]

>

I was somewhere between "angry" and "incandescent with rage" over the instruction booklet with a chop saw. It has an entry in the "contents" section "Changing the mains plug" turn to the page listed and it says "Use a qualified electrician, do not attempt to change plugs by yourself."

I can remember the days when being unable to wire a plug was an insult.

[Huge]

It's the ultimate aim of politicians. Never forget, they are utterly convinced they can run your life better than you can.

[Owain]

DoT Select Committee recommendation 11: We recommend that cars and other motor vehicles sold by motor traders should carry a health warning that it is illegal for an unregistered person to operate a motor vehicle without a test being completed by the Driving Standards Agency. This will encourage the general public to =A0use licensed taxis, and reinforce the general health and safety message that driving can potentially be extremely hazardous.

Owain

[Owain]

A side effect of that was that plenty of people pretended they knew how to wire a plug when they didn't.

Owain

[ARWadsworth]

> >

Something I used to ask my apprentices to do when I interviewed them.

I was not always looking for electrical knowledge but sometimes for a bit of dexterity and the ability to think or ask for help.

The one that said he could just power the light up by stripping the cables back and then shoving them into a socket with another plug made one of the best apprentices I have ever had. He was not allowed to prove his point on the day but he could point out the correct LNE "holes" on a socket.

Watching them fit a plug can be very interesting. I often gave them a slotted screwdriver that was too big for the plug terminals to see what they do. Whilst you are watching you are asking yourself "are they struggling because they want to please and will not ask for help, because they are stupid or because they are nervous."

[Robin]

I think it's all part of the entitlement culture. Politicians respond to the pressure on them from members of the public and - ever more- much of the media to "do something" whenever there are deaths as a result of dodgy *anything*. So we saw the rail network brought to its knees by a couple of serious crashes caused by dodgy work; the imposition of safeguarding checks on millions of volunteers (and the loss of untold others who can't be bothered) as a result of 2 murders which the checks wouldn't have prevented; social workers doing ever more paperwork because Victoria Climbie and Baby P died; and so on and so on. Other countries have much the same disasters (eg even the Swiss have fatal train crashes). But my impression (and more relevantly the impression of some politicians I used to know) was that fewer voters in those countries expect perfection and - crucially - even those that do don't expect to get it (i) from politicians and (ii) on the cheap. All that said, I still see no escape until the Chinese buy the country

[DerekG]

Wasn't that the basic premiss adopted by the politicians in the last New-Lavvy government ? (Prescot, Blunkett and "Broken nose" Reid in particular). That they can perform each and every task of whatever nature better than each and everybody else, and we must all be stupid because we need them to think for us.

DerekG

[Chris J Dixon]

At least you were allowed to buy the chop saw. Next thing will be having to demonstrate your ability to use it safely before you are permitted to take it away. ;-)

Chris

[Chris J Dixon]

The point that was completely missed at the time was the negative overall impact the knee-jerk response had on travel safety. Many journeys had to be done by road instead, inherently at greater risk than even the under-maintained rail system.

Chris

[Huge]

It isn't just the aforementioned wankers. It's all politicians. That's why they go into politics. "These poor people can't possibly manage for themselves - I'll do it for them."