Re: NIC EIC needed to work in the kitchen?

On 23 Nov, 17:29, "GB" wrote:

Ask him why he's not on the register

No, *he* needs to get someone else in to deal with that, at no extra cost to you. Make it clear that you expect the work to be carried out and a Minor Works Certificate to be issued by someone registered with one of the Part Pee self-certification bodies.
Note that it's not possible for a registered person to certify work carried out by someone else (and not supervised by them, eg mate/ labourer/prentice)
Owain
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wibbled on Monday 23 November 2009 17:29

If he has claimed to be a NICEIC approved person (there are several levels of approvedness like AC and QS, but the minimum level is sufficient for signing off domestic work as I understand it), then he has made a fraudulent claim up which you are presumably depending.
Personally I'd fire him with no pay immediately - no decent sparks (even a kitchen fitter doing sparking as a component of their work) doing domestic work is going to lapse their NICEIC membership if they still intend to do electrics. Either he's failed his periodic visit by their inspector or he's trying to be cheap. In either case he can no longer sign off the work re Part P and technically no one else can either, unless he goes the Building Control route or he's in a big firm who has blanket coverage whereby his work is supposedly monitored by the incumbent NICEIC member (is he?).

As I say, I'd boot him and get someone else. He's pretty much broken the implied contract that you have hired a registered person, so without being a lawyer, I can't see he's have a leg to stand on. It is inconvenient, but can you trust the work of someone who *may* have failed their last inspection?

The only other option that would be satisfactory, would be to tell him, if he cannot sign off the work legally, then it will become a Building Notice job and he is to absorb the costs, which will be around 100-something quid for the BNA and probably a couple of hundred for the PIR done by someone else, who will have to be a Part P scheme member if my council is anything to go by.
Or
Tell him the electrical work will have to be subcontracted to a registered sparks at no extra cost.
A call to trading standards might be in order too.
--
Tim Watts

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What anyone can do in a kitchen under SI2006 Non-Notifiable Works is quite limited.
You can not... - Add a new final circuit - Add a new wiring accessory (eg, socket) - Install a new CU with all new circuit breakers (see note below re enclosure)
You can... - Perform maintenance (this one is very grey, if it is to correct non- BS7671 there is little problem) - Replace wiring accessories - Replace cabling for a single "circuit" (note BS7671 definition of a "circuit" is defined as protected by a CPD, so not just a single cable; CPD being circuit protective device such as MCB or CPD) - Replace any damaged enclosure (including CU) - Replace any protective device (such as RCD, altho an issue is testing the new one properly re 1/2x 1x 5x trip times etc)
The reason for "can not" is as much a DIYer would not have the required test equipment with calibration certificate, some do but not all. The most critical of these is actually an RCD tester - that the protective devices DO in fact work re electrocution in a "special location" re water and electricity. It would have saved many lives over the years and many many sparks until Part P never had the kit (they actually shared it between mates, seriously and not illogical really).
Go to ODPM website and download SI2006. Skim read it, then read it again carefully.
The person may well be qualified (C&G 2382 & 2392 which you can check). However he is not registered with an appropriate scheme (which may be down to cost or failed an assessment). He may may not have test equipment in calibration. He may have gone industrial based on his C&G, JIB card etc and not bothered with domestic anymore, who knows.
The problem is: 1 - If he can't notify the job, you/he will AND have BC come and inspect AT YOUR COST 2 - He may walk off without any notification, you need to then PAY to Regularise it
Regularisation can be easy or DIFFICULT depending on the LABC. They may accept a PIR, or cable tracing, or require cables exposed and so on. The DSA publish guidelines, but some have a bee in their bonnet about stripping everything out. Others are more practical - it can depend on what they find (if workmanship has faults they will soon suspect cable routes, sizing, grouping factors and so on).
Frankly I am with industry - if the guy has sufficient C&G and 1yr experience then nothing else should be required. The problem is domestic is with Part P - SI2006, which leaves the OP with a problem - the guy has plain deceived you.
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How many deaths in (say) the previous 10 years would have been prevented by a check that the protective device does actually work?
--
Selah

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Oops, not what I meant, correction... The most critical of these is actually an RCD tester - that the protective devices ARE present and DO in fact work re electrocution in a "special location" re water and electricity. The presence of RCD would have saved many lives over the years.
I actually agree with 17th "RCD everything".
- MEB cut death - Plumber cuts MEB to CW pipe without shunting it. Precious few plumbers seem to understand the critical need to shunt the thing properly, or even know that many millions of houses are still loop-in supply. - NICEIC installer death - Cable abraded thro hole in metal studding - MP daughter's death - Nail thro spice rack, foot against class-1 (earthed) cooker - Stripping wire with teeth death - Rather sad case - Occupier death after decorator visit - Decorator left wiring accessories unsafe
What I disagree with is competent DIYers not being able to add RCD (eg, change split-load unit into all-RCBO unit following the drop from 45-50 to 25 for RCBOs). The obvious counter from the bodies is "you mean competent DIYer with calibrated RCD tester and C&G to understand the results", unless you are asking RoSPA of course who are away with the fairy and wearing a wetsuit just in case.
Faulty plug-in RCD have led to deaths re lawnmower and hedge trimmer recently, and one of those still tripped with the button. They do not like being basked around, they are electromechanical devices. Better to pick up an RCBO for the final circuit, or an RCD spur, or a "RCD outside socket from B&Q/Wickes/Etc", or one of the Legrand 10mA metalclad sockets on Ebay for about a tenner at the moment (I'm not the seller, just noticed them in passing and I know many people here do benchwork where 10mA is preferable to 30mA :-)
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On 24 Nov, 12:45, "js.b1" wrote:

But not as many as increased competence and common sense.

More fool him.

Bad practice.

Bad practice, lack of common sense.

Lack of common sense.

Bad practice on part of decorator, owner did not recognise danger.

which would be far ahead of a lot of "sparkies", a pair of whom I found didn't know how to wire 2 doorbells off the same push. I offered to draw them a diagram but they refused to believe that I could have any clue about such matters.

I think reaction time is just as important as mA, not sure how the curves compare for the different ratings.
Owain
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wrote:

That foolishness has killed quite a few people already, why do they want to add to the numbers? "Whole house" RCD's often leave people in burning houses with no lights to aid escape, a very silly idea as fires and falls kill vastly more than the trivial number of electrocution cases.
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Which are not compliant with the 17th :-)
By 17th "RCD everything" I mean compliant with 314.1. - That means at least 2, preferably 3 RCD (lights split across) - More preferable is RCBO for each final circuit
Full electrocution protection need not increase falls & fires. 1 - mains interlinked smoke/heat alarms with battery backup 2 - non-maintained emergency light on the stairs 3 - hall light on own circuit, then up, then down
That need not mean an extra light circuit.
Put the hall light, smoke & non-maintained hall light on the same circuit. The hall is least likely to have a fire vs garage, utility, kitchen, living & bedroom areas. Thus the hall light is most likely to stay on when up/down go off, directly reducing falls 1) on stairs 2) by casting light into upstairs rooms 3) by casting light into downstairs rooms 4) providing light via non-maintained light if necessary during fire. Indeed since smoke alarms are mains powered, they could integrate a light (although of minimal value re smoke I admit, but in the critical 2-3 minutes after a smoke alarm probably useful).
In the next 2yrs I will move my mother's hall lighting from Upstairs f.c. to the smoke circuit f.c. with three low level LED non-maintained lights also on it. The hall light is most likely to have incandescent bulbs re fast-on particularly in cold winter, which are most likely to blow compared to CFL taking out the faster-tripping Type-B MCB/RCBO plunging the stairs into darkness. I've always hated "hall light takes out bedroom lights re same circuit", seems freakin nuts when you are Upstairs and require the stairs to get Downstairs :-)
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wrote:

Do you have any idea how many people died from electrocution in the UK every year?
For a new house or a full rewire the extravagant system you describe is adequate although why you would want to put any lighting circuit on an RCD is puzzling. For existing wiring there are still far to many "qualified" electricians conning people into having consumer units alone replaced (Much professional trained sucking of teeth and muttering "Can't pass that mate - not compliant are you?"). When the do the lucrative and simple CU replacement they often leave lights on RCD's and tell the hapless owner they are now "safer".
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wibbled on Wednesday 25 November 2009 09:07

You *have to* if working to the 17th, unless you like doing SWA, MICC or screwed steel conduit for all your switch drops ;->
Or your walls are thick and you like chasing cables >2" deep...
--
Tim Watts

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Unburied plastic conduit on the surface?
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wibbled on Wednesday 25 November 2009 10:42

Well, there is that option too. Clipped cable too if you like :)
--
Tim Watts

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It's what I'm installing in the workshop. Steel conduit's a pain and I don't want anything buried, because of future access. A workshop I used a while back was built from hollow cement blocks and had cable inside the block voids. Now _that_ was a pain to work with.
Surface plastic is also a reasonable approach for some kitchen work, as you can hide it behind fitted units. It gives easy flexibility for appliance placement.
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wibbled on Wednesday 25 November 2009 14:06

Indeed.
Due to location of isolator switches above the worktop and sockets below, plus random holes for plumbing, it was a pain to try to conceal the final cables to the appliance sockets in an IEE approved zone. And teh socket poisitions weren't obvious without the plumbing being in place.
So I brought 20mm round out to the surface from the flush isolator boxes (offset bend in conduit) and left them at tails.
Now that the plumbing's in, it has become clearer where the sockets can go, so I'll continue in surface round tube (where I can route it anyway I like) and finish in metal clad sockets. Given the number of pipes knocking around down there, 3 more won't make any difference :)
I have a similar problem round the back in the utility area due to flat roofs and lumps of timber - nearly impossible to find a buried zone that works, other than long horizontals within 150mm of the ceiling, so the boiler and washing machine will probably get surface cable, but probably in mini trunking rather than conduit.
--
Tim Watts

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On 25 Nov, 10:17, Tim W wrote:

:-)
Owain
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Why protection does MICC afford to drill bits, screws and nails?
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About the same as conduit.. none. However it does earth the drill bit/screw/nail and stop you getting a serious shock (in most cases). You can pass the protection requirements with some earthed foil around the cable.
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wibbled on Wednesday 25 November 2009 11:44

Mechanically - about as much as SWA. Screwed conduit is tough but an SDS will probably go through it.
The point which is often missed with MICC and SWA, is the primary purpose of the earth shield (armour or copper jacket) is to ensure that any metal implement going through is earthed before it hits a live conductore, thus protecting the person. Secondly, hitting the live conductor will trip teh circuit protection.
The secondary benefit is the toughness of the armour or copper sheath - but it is not presumed that these are indestructible.
--
Tim Watts

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Fredxx wrote:

Mechanically, little. However it ensure you get an earth fault when you do nail through it, and that cuts the power off.
--
Cheers,

John.

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Ignoring the tripping of an RCD in a fire etc, my feeling is you're more likely to 'get a shock' when changing a bulb than any other similar task around the house. Of course 'more likely' is still a tiny amount.
--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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