Re: NIC EIC needed to work in the kitchen?

[Owain]

I have hired someone to completely redo the kitchen in my flat. He starte= d a

> week ago, and so far he has only done preparation work - the kitchen has > been completely gutted. He describes himself on his quote as "Electrical > Contractor NIC EIC". The only problem is that, ahem, he isn't on the NIC = EIC > register. He apparently was until a year ago, but they cannot tell me why= he > is not registered any longer.

Ask him why he's not on the register

I feel that I am stuck with him to get the kitchen reinstated, as I am > working full-time at the moment. =A0Any suggestions? Obviously, the decei= t is > quite worrying. > There is nothing particularly difficult about the kitchen wiring, but do = I > need to get someone else in to deal with that?

No, *he* needs to get someone else in to deal with that, at no extra cost to you. Make it clear that you expect the work to be carried out and a Minor Works Certificate to be issued by someone registered with one of the Part Pee self-certification bodies.

Note that it's not possible for a registered person to certify work carried out by someone else (and not supervised by them, eg mate/ labourer/prentice)

Owain

[Tim W]

GB wibbled on Monday 23 November 2009 17:29

If he has claimed to be a NICEIC approved person (there are several levels of approvedness like AC and QS, but the minimum level is sufficient for signing off domestic work as I understand it), then he has made a fraudulent claim up which you are presumably depending.

Personally I'd fire him with no pay immediately - no decent sparks (even a kitchen fitter doing sparking as a component of their work) doing domestic work is going to lapse their NICEIC membership if they still intend to do electrics. Either he's failed his periodic visit by their inspector or he's trying to be cheap. In either case he can no longer sign off the work re Part P and technically no one else can either, unless he goes the Building Control route or he's in a big firm who has blanket coverage whereby his work is supposedly monitored by the incumbent NICEIC member (is he?).

As I say, I'd boot him and get someone else. He's pretty much broken the implied contract that you have hired a registered person, so without being a lawyer, I can't see he's have a leg to stand on. It is inconvenient, but can you trust the work of someone who *may* have failed their last inspection?

The only other option that would be satisfactory, would be to tell him, if he cannot sign off the work legally, then it will become a Building Notice job and he is to absorb the costs, which will be around 100-something quid for the BNA and probably a couple of hundred for the PIR done by someone else, who will have to be a Part P scheme member if my council is anything to go by.

Or

Tell him the electrical work will have to be subcontracted to a registered sparks at no extra cost.

A call to trading standards might be in order too.

[js.b1]

What anyone can do in a kitchen under SI2006 Non-Notifiable Works is quite limited.

You can not...

- Add a new final circuit

- Add a new wiring accessory (eg, socket)

- Install a new CU with all new circuit breakers (see note below re enclosure)

You can...

- Perform maintenance (this one is very grey, if it is to correct non- BS7671 there is little problem)

- Replace wiring accessories

- Replace cabling for a single "circuit" (note BS7671 definition of a "circuit" is defined as protected by a CPD, so not just a single cable; CPD being circuit protective device such as MCB or CPD)

- Replace any damaged enclosure (including CU)

- Replace any protective device (such as RCD, altho an issue is testing the new one properly re 1/2x 1x 5x trip times etc)

The reason for "can not" is as much a DIYer would not have the required test equipment with calibration certificate, some do but not all. The most critical of these is actually an RCD tester - that the protective devices DO in fact work re electrocution in a "special location" re water and electricity. It would have saved many lives over the years and many many sparks until Part P never had the kit (they actually shared it between mates, seriously and not illogical really).

Go to ODPM website and download SI2006. Skim read it, then read it again carefully.

The person may well be qualified (C&G 2382 & 2392 which you can check). However he is not registered with an appropriate scheme (which may be down to cost or failed an assessment). He may may not have test equipment in calibration. He may have gone industrial based on his C&G, JIB card etc and not bothered with domestic anymore, who knows.

The problem is:

1 - If he can't notify the job, you/he will AND have BC come and inspect AT YOUR COST 2 - He may walk off without any notification, you need to then PAY to Regularise it

Regularisation can be easy or DIFFICULT depending on the LABC. They may accept a PIR, or cable tracing, or require cables exposed and so on. The DSA publish guidelines, but some have a bee in their bonnet about stripping everything out. Others are more practical - it can depend on what they find (if workmanship has faults they will soon suspect cable routes, sizing, grouping factors and so on).

Frankly I am with industry - if the guy has sufficient C&G and 1yr experience then nothing else should be required. The problem is domestic is with Part P - SI2006, which leaves the OP with a problem - the guy has plain deceived you.

[Fredxx]

So what's to stop a registered person to "instruct" a DIYer to put in place the required circuits, check and certify?

[Owain]

Part Pee requires the work to be done by a registered person, not just signed off by them. Obviously the approach of having just one qualified person within a NICEIC registered firm is a complete failure of enforcement, but in that case it's the firm (legal person) that is registered.

Owain

[js.b1]

Part P Notifable Works requires work to be done by a registered entity.

- Individual who is registered

- Company who is registered with QA spark supervising anyone

Why will a spark not want to QA someone else's work?

- Ignoring liability issues, it comes down to Work Breakdown Structure.

- Domestic Electrician work is 5% design & inspect, 5% sitting in queue to wholesaler, 90% labouring.

DIY job. An electrician would like you to pay the labouring hours at electrician rates, rather than at labourer or DIYer rates. That is to say a DIY job would mean 3x =A380/hr acting as QA spark whereas an Electrician job means 100x =A340/hr acting as a labouring- electrician :-) There are many electricians and a finite number of jobs per year.

Business job. Business prefers to pay many labourers at labourer rates, but just one electrician at electrician rate amortised over several jobs :-) Business hides unemployment and particularly hides self-employed with IR & Gordon Brown despise (plus Part P is IR35 for electricians).

NICEIC pander to both camps, and electricians want individuals to ignore the Work Breakdown Structure :-)

... now why is my doorknob at 415VAC...

[Fredxx]

You contradict yourself, must work be done by a registered person, or merely supervised by him. In which case a DIYer can do the work under supervision, in the same way as a labourer.

As you say, if the law says work is to be done by a registered person, then the law is openly flouted, but I don't think that is the case.

[Stephen Gower]

How many deaths in (say) the previous 10 years would have been prevented by a check that the protective device does actually work?

[Owain]

There is a distinction between a legal person and a natural person. The work must be done by a registered legal person. The work can be done by an unqualified operative covered by his employer's registration (as in the case of NICEIC) provided the operative is working on his employer's time.

If it's the natural person who's the registered person ie an individual electrician, then he has to do all the "work" and is personally responsible for its compliance, obviously he could be 'helped' by someone.

Did I mention the scheme's a complete farce?

Owain

[js.b1]

Oops, not what I meant, correction... The most critical of these is actually an RCD tester - that the protective devices ARE present and DO in fact work re electrocution in a "special location" re water and electricity. The presence of RCD would have saved many lives over the years.

I actually agree with 17th "RCD everything".

- MEB cut death - Plumber cuts MEB to CW pipe without shunting it. Precious few plumbers seem to understand the critical need to shunt the thing properly, or even know that many millions of houses are still loop-in supply.

- NICEIC installer death - Cable abraded thro hole in metal studding

- MP daughter's death - Nail thro spice rack, foot against class-1 (earthed) cooker

- Stripping wire with teeth death - Rather sad case

- Occupier death after decorator visit - Decorator left wiring accessories unsafe

What I disagree with is competent DIYers not being able to add RCD (eg, change split-load unit into all-RCBO unit following the drop from =A345-50 to =A325 for RCBOs). The obvious counter from the bodies is "you mean competent DIYer with calibrated RCD tester and C&G to understand the results", unless you are asking RoSPA of course who are away with the fairy and wearing a wetsuit just in case.

Faulty plug-in RCD have led to deaths re lawnmower and hedge trimmer recently, and one of those still tripped with the button. They do not like being basked around, they are electromechanical devices. Better to pick up an RCBO for the final circuit, or an RCD spur, or a "RCD outside socket from B&Q/Wickes/Etc", or one of the Legrand 10mA metalclad sockets on Ebay for about a tenner at the moment (I'm not the seller, just noticed them in passing and I know many people here do benchwork where 10mA is preferable to 30mA :-)

[Fredxx]

I did hear you make such a mention!

What does the act say, or is it the NICEIC scheme who allows an "employee" to do the labouring work? Do they have to be an employee? What about a "subciontractor"? After all there are a number of IR35 friendly contracts.

Are there any other schemes? I thought at one point there was going to be a scheme to allow some more DIY work but it seems to have gone very quiet.

[Owain]

But not as many as increased competence and common sense.

More fool him.

Bad practice, lack of common sense.

Lack of common sense.

Bad practice on part of decorator, owner did not recognise danger.

which would be far ahead of a lot of "sparkies", a pair of whom I found didn't know how to wire 2 doorbells off the same push. I offered to draw them a diagram but they refused to believe that I could have any clue about such matters.

I think reaction time is just as important as mA, not sure how the curves compare for the different ratings.

Owain

[al]

Does the above mean anyone can go ahead and replace their CU because the cover is damaged? (small hammer required to get around part P ;-) Regards Al

[js.b1]

BR AD P... "p8 Table 1 Work that need not be notified to BC" "Work consisting of" "Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (note b)" "Notes: b) If the circuit protective measures are unaffected"

Enclosure - but NOT circuit protective measures may be changed :-)

BR AD P... "p8 Additional Notes..." "c. Consumer unit replacements are, however, notifiable"

Replacement of a CU re enclosure and circuit protective devices is notifiable. You can re-fix or replace the enclosure if circuit protective measures are unaffected.

BR AD P... "p8 Additional Notes..." "a) Notifiable jobs include new circuits back to the CU"

Nothing to stop you fitting a larger enclosure with more ways if only that enclosure size were available. However you can not add new circuits.

BR AD P... "p8 Additional Notes..." "b) Replacement, repair and maintenance jobs are generally not notifiable, even if carried out in a kitchen or special location, or associated with a special installation"

You can change a Fuse, RCD, MCB, RCBO should the need arise (ie, if the terminal screw is stripped, or the RCD/RCBO test button no longer trips the device).

BS7671 gives definitions, useful to read in conjunction with SI2006. For example SI2006 does not say "cable" it says "circuit" which BS7671 definitions section at the front defines as anything beyond the CPD.

So "enclosure" does not mean "enclosure with circuit protective devices" - hence the footnote "b)" :-)

[Peter Parry]

That foolishness has killed quite a few people already, why do they want to add to the numbers? "Whole house" RCD's often leave people in burning houses with no lights to aid escape, a very silly idea as fires and falls kill vastly more than the trivial number of electrocution cases.

[NT]

All depends whether you need the part p paperwork. The thread seems to have so far assumed you do.

NT

[js.b1]

Which are not compliant with the 17th :-)

By 17th "RCD everything" I mean compliant with 314.1.

- That means at least 2, preferably 3 RCD (lights split across)

- More preferable is RCBO for each final circuit

Full electrocution protection need not increase falls & fires.

1 - mains interlinked smoke/heat alarms with battery backup 2 - non-maintained emergency light on the stairs 3 - hall light on own circuit, then up, then down

That need not mean an extra light circuit.

Put the hall light, smoke & non-maintained hall light on the same circuit. The hall is least likely to have a fire vs garage, utility, kitchen, living & bedroom areas. Thus the hall light is most likely to stay on when up/down go off, directly reducing falls 1) on stairs 2) by casting light into upstairs rooms 3) by casting light into downstairs rooms 4) providing light via non-maintained light if necessary during fire. Indeed since smoke alarms are mains powered, they could integrate a light (although of minimal value re smoke I admit, but in the critical 2-3 minutes after a smoke alarm probably useful).

In the next 2yrs I will move my mother's hall lighting from Upstairs f.c. to the smoke circuit f.c. with three low level LED non-maintained lights also on it. The hall light is most likely to have incandescent bulbs re fast-on particularly in cold winter, which are most likely to blow compared to CFL taking out the faster-tripping Type-B MCB/RCBO plunging the stairs into darkness. I've always hated "hall light takes out bedroom lights re same circuit", seems freakin nuts when you are Upstairs and require the stairs to get Downstairs :-)

[Owain]

Well, the OP is paying a professional, so having the Part Pee paperwork is not only his entitlement, but something of a reassurance against being fobbed off with the legendary electrical incompetence of kitchen fitters in matters electrical.

Of course, if one is DIYing it then it all comes under like-for-like replacement doesn't it :-)

Owain

[John Rumm]

NICEIC is not the only game in town, even CORGI^h^h^h^h^hGasSafe get in on the deal.

Via building notice and LABC inspection is the only "approved" route that I am aware of, and ignoring it completely is the route taken by

99.9% it would seem.

[NT]

entitlement yes, but if its not required then its negotiable, and he has a good lever with which to negotiate the price.

NT