This is getting tedious.
As others apart from myself have pointed out to you there is no problem cutting or machining timber or timber based products to an accuracy of 0.5mm or less which is what you claimed.
And as I pointed out previously, its the possible accumulation of small errors that causes problems. Just as it does with other materials.
I'm sure you're familiar with the old adage. "When in a hole..............."
.. get the micrometer out and bitch about the accuracy.
I'm sorry you've lost me again.
Assuming that there is "no problem" machining timber or timber based products to an accuracy of 0.5mm or less, as you claim, how can these "small" errors arise in the first place ?
Either the stuff is accurate to 0.5mm or less, or it isn't.
And where does this accumulation of errors come into it ?
If say you make a batch of twenty cabinets with two doors each, and each door is 0.5mm wider than it should be as a result of the machine being set up wrongly, then that's all that means. Each door
0.5 mm wider than intended. It doesn't mean that one of the doors in the batch is going to end up 20 mm wider then intended.Indeed, and it would appear that you have yet to measure the depth of the one you currently find yourself standing in.
I'm not sure if Incra do anything along these lines, accurate to with 0.5 mm and at 5 times the price no doubt, so it looks like you'll have to settle for a 1mm cheapo instead.
michael adams
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Those pesky accumulated errors strike once more.... signal lost... recalculating.
"0.5mm or less" is a small error, wouldn't you say? It arises because there is "no problem cutting ... to an accuracy of 0.5mm or less"
It is.
It doesn't have to be because the machine is set up wrongly. It's because that is the limit of the accuracy of the machine or its operator.
And for the most part people don't only buy one cabinet, they'll have a row of them. So the errors will accumulate when you butt them up together.
Why do you think that "accurate to 0.5mm or less" always means that item may result in being up to 0.5mm wider. It might be up to 0.5mm narrower. That's what "accurate to 0.5mm or less" means.
If you have a row of such items, butting up to each other, then the overall error will be the appropriate aggregate of the errors, which by the way for your set of 20 gives a most likely error of around 2mm.
Streuth its hard dealing with someone who so obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.
Errors arise.Its a fact of life. It is why manufacturers will give a specif ication of +/- whatever.
Making a cabinet can involve up to 30 operations, all of which can incur a slight error even before someone begins to assemble it. Its when one error of -0.5mm in one piece meets another error of -0.5mm in another piece that an accumulated error of 1 mm occurs. In theory it could be much worse but it is very rare. This is why furniture has 'features' that are incorporated to hide any possible error.
Incidentally I have been talking of possible errors of +/- 0.5mm not 0.5mm or less.
So throw down the spade.
But we're not talking about "manufacturers" are we ?
We're talking about you and your insistence that there is no problem cutting or machining timber or timber based products to an accuracy of 0.5mm or less
I'm not sure where this "error" is coming from. If you're using precision machinery and comptetent operators where's the source of error.
However, leaving that aside, as you've now explained that -
"Incidentally I have been talking of possible errors of +/- 0.5mm not 0.5mm or less."
I can see no reason why such errors won't cancel each other out.
They'd only be "accumulative" a possibility you seem to lay a lot of stress on, if you could be certain they would all fall in the same direction.
The only such "features" I've seen mention of on here are basic O'Level carpentry ones, floating panels in doors, and not gluing cross grained end panels on tables.
michael adams
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As I already explained which you seem to have overlooked, precision woodworking machinery as used in manufacture, is as accurate as the pitch on the screw adjuster and the size of the adjustment wheel. If someone was capable of turning the adjustment wheel by 1 degree then the tool would move by
360ths of 1 mm or whatever the pitch of the screw.Once set up the operator doesn't need to make any further adjustments. There's not simply a case of pushing 20, or 40 components through and hoping for the best. The first piece is pushed through oversize. Then adjustments are made by rotating the thread aduster until the piece is the correct size - measured down to the last 0.01.mm if needs be.
michael adams
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The "professional's tool of choice" is still a dimension saw. Although I somehow suspect you've probably never even seen a picture of one.
Whenever did I say that it wasn't? I've already explained that the precision of precison machinery woodworking adjustable by a screw thread, is limited only by the pitch of that thread.
You'd waste a lot less time if you learned basic English comprehension first, I'd imagine.
michael adams
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>
Thanks for this - based on your feedback I've ordered a bundle of 3 rules (T, 150, corner) from the States.
It's unfortunate that the thread has degenerated into willy waving.
Oh dear we're definitely dealing with an educational sub normal here.
If you had any experience at all about manufacturing ANYTHING you would kno w that human nature being what it is errors will creep in. They can be oper ators errors or machine errors. No machine is infallible and no operator is infallible. A slight build up of sawdust against a fence that's gone un-no ticed. An out of balance blade. A fitting inserted slightly askew. Whatever . No one can guarantee 100% precision.
If you can't work out how errors accumulate you need to go back to school. Streuth its simple maths. You don't even understand the difference between +/- 0.5mm and 0.5mm or less.
And as I stated before, fortunately an accumulation of non compensatory err ors is rare. This doesn't mean it can't happen.
But we are talking about manufacturing albeit in a small way. Why not. Your initial statement " Drawing lines is one thing. Machining or cutting timber, or timber based products, to the same degree of precision, is another "
didn't preclude it. I'll save you the embarrassment by ignoring the other t waddle you spouted.
We use an Altendorf sliding table saw, which you so amusingly call a dimens ion saw, its a dimensioning saw, and personally for hobby use, I have a Fel der CF741 combination machine. I'll let you google those.
Regardless I'll talk hand work if you prefer. The average persons ability to work repeatedly to close tolerances is no where near as good as a machin es.. This doesn't mean he can't work to a closer tolerance. He can, but it will take more time. As I stated before, a sharp plane and a shooting board will enable me to split a 0.4mm pencil line if I wish. How much accuracy d o you want?
At this stage to anyone with a pinch of intelligence your initial statement about the inability to cut or machine timer to close tolerances is dead in the water. Leave it there.
I'm glad to see you have learned something from this discussion even if you are confusing carpentry with cabinet making.
I will not be drawn into a discussion about the finer points of designing f urniture for machine manufacture. As you appear to be adept at internet sea rches and copy and pasting I'll let you look it up yourself.
Your hole is getting deeper and deeper. You're out of your depth. Time to s top before you make a complete ass of yourself.
- Oh dear we're definitely dealing with an educational sub normal here.
I don't know quite where you'll get by, insulting me.
I simply pointed out in reponse to the OP's claim about drawing lines, that drawing lines with a high degree of precision and cutting wood with the same degree of precison are two entirely different things. Especially to a person without access to precision machinery and conditioning equipment.
I was simply pointing out that in reality there can often be a big difference between theory and practice.
You immediately took this to mean that I was advocating sloppy measuring practice. Quite where you got this from on the strength of what I wrote, I don't know. But being polite I let it go. Which was clearly a big mistake on my part.
At this juncture you claimed to be a furniture manufacturer using precision tools. But at the same time you now admitted that errors creep in to your work. Precisely the "sloppiness which you accused me of advocating in your very first post on the topic.
I won't bother with the remainder of your post as I've no intention of swapping insults with complete strangers on UseNet. And I've no need to boost my ego by boasting about manufacturing furniture or anything else. I know what I know which means I can make a very shrews guess about whether other people really know what they're talking about or not.
Although as you're clearly gone to a lot of trouble to try and convince somebody of something, I'll leave it all where it is to grace cyberspace for perpetuity.
Your word wrap is a bollocksed BTW.
Probably another example of these errors creeping in
michael adams
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If you had any experience at all about manufacturing ANYTHING you would know that human nature being what it is errors will creep in. They can be operators errors or machine errors. No machine is infallible and no operator is infallible. A slight build up of sawdust against a fence that's gone un-noticed. An out of balance blade. A fitting inserted slightly askew. Whatever. No one can guarantee 100% precision.
If you can't work out how errors accumulate you need to go back to school. Streuth its simple maths. You don't even understand the difference between +/- 0.5mm and 0.5mm or less.
And as I stated before, fortunately an accumulation of non compensatory errors is rare. This doesn't mean it can't happen.
But we are talking about manufacturing albeit in a small way. Why not. Your initial statement " Drawing lines is one thing. Machining or cutting timber, or timber based products, to the same degree of precision, is another "
didn't preclude it. I'll save you the embarrassment by ignoring the other twaddle you spouted.
We use an Altendorf sliding table saw, which you so amusingly call a dimension saw, its a dimensioning saw, and personally for hobby use, I have a Felder CF741 combination machine. I'll let you google those.
Regardless I'll talk hand work if you prefer. The average persons ability to work repeatedly to close tolerances is no where near as good as a machines.. This doesn't mean he can't work to a closer tolerance. He can, but it will take more time. As I stated before, a sharp plane and a shooting board will enable me to split a 0.4mm pencil line if I wish. How much accuracy do you want?
At this stage to anyone with a pinch of intelligence your initial statement about the inability to cut or machine timer to close tolerances is dead in the water. Leave it there.
I'm glad to see you have learned something from this discussion even if you are confusing carpentry with cabinet making.
I will not be drawn into a discussion about the finer points of designing furniture for machine manufacture. As you appear to be adept at internet searches and copy and pasting I'll let you look it up yourself.
Your hole is getting deeper and deeper. You're out of your depth. Time to stop before you make a complete ass of yourself.
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Lets get back to what you really said
"Drawing lines is one thing. Machining or cutting timber, or timber based products, to the same degree of precision, is another."
You've now changed that to
lines, that drawing lines with a high degree of precision and cutting wood with the same degree of precison are two entirely different things. Especially to a person without access to precision machinery and conditioning equipment. "
Totally and utterly refuted, You don't have a leg to stand on. You've spent your time wittering and twisting in an attempt to get round you original n onsensical statement and failed miserably. No one needs precision machinery or conditioning equipment,whatever that is, to cut wood accurately. If you knew the slightest thing about woodworking you'd know that.
a few weeks or a few months time. Unless of course its being stored in optimal conditions and constantly being monitored using precision temperature and humidity equipment. "
WTF are you on about. Talk about non-sequiturs and straw men.
And now that you have been totally thrashed and humiliated you resort to th at age old news group standby of taking umbrage.
using precision tools. But at the same time you now admitted that errors creep in to your work. Precisely the "sloppiness which you accused me of advocating in your very first post on the topic.
Yes we do manufacture furniture. Yes we do use precision tools. I'd give yo u a list but you wouldn't know what they are. No I did not admit that error s creep in. I stated it as a fact, and common knowledge to anyone with a wh it of experience in this subject. No it is not sloppines but a tacit acknow ledgement of reality.
of swapping insults with complete strangers on UseNet. And I've no need to boost my ego by boasting about manufacturing furniture or anything else. I know what I know which means I can make a very shrews guess about whether other people really know what they're talking about or not.
You won't bother with the rest of my post as you have no answer to it.
If you really knew what you know you would know that you know sweet f.a. ab out this subject and your repeated errors and misunderstandings demonstrate this clearly.
So be a good boy now and let mommy tuck you up in bed. You've had a hard da y of it but really you shouldn't attempt to play with the big boys.
Another insult. You just can't help yourself can you ?
But let's carry on regardless.
So please explain the difference.
I've again ignored the remainder of your post, the lists of all this machinery you claim you own etc as you seem to be under the misapprehension that you can simply post any old baloney, and just so long as you lard it with sufficient insults, you're sure of a reply to each individual point. As I'm equally sure that you're under a similar misapprehension, that anyone else is as interested in any of this, as you so obviously are.
However I must admit I'm intrigued as to what possible explanation you're going to come up as to this profound difference you've spotted, between these two extracts of mine which you've quoted.
So once again please, explain the difference.
michael adams
...
You added another sentence to your initial claim. There was no mention of precision machinery in your first post. Mind you bringing that in merely confirmed your abysmal ignorarance of the subject
Sunshine, selective responses are the last resort of a poor loser. Picking your way through my posts and only responding to those items that suit you merely illustrates the paucity of your arguments.
You have yet to respond to the essence of this whole farago, your claim that working in wood to precise lines was different to drawing same fine lines.
Please address this issue before you do anything else. Refusal to do so will only confirm your ignorance.
Be a man for once and admit you were wrong.
So just to confirm
according to you, accurately cutting wood is no more difficult, and takes no more practice and skill, than does accurately drawing lines on paper.
Have you ever considered running your own apprentiship scheme ?
michael adams
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Whereas I'd say that wasting one's time typing paragaraph after paragraph of badly formatted ill-argued nonsense is the real mark of the loser.
More especially if its laced with insults, totally unsubstantiated ad-hominems and cliched put-downs which more or less guarentees it won't generate any sort of measured response.
Talk about pissing into the wind.
michael adams
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Tell me when I claimed
and takes no more practice and skill, than does accurately drawing lines on paper. " Resorted to putting words in my mouth have you?
Lets look at you words.Lets look once again at your claim
based products, to the same degree of precision, is another."
This has been totally refuted by others beside myself.
It is perfectly possible to cut wood as accurately as draw lines. Either by machine or by hand. Artisans have been doing it for centuries. Its a very basic skill.
So instead of drawing red herrings lets hear you defend this statement of yours.
So come on.
Defend this statement.
Put up or shut up.
Stop shilly shallying
Step up to the line and explain to us all why
based products, to the same degree of precision, is another"
Stop twisting and turning. Stop avoiding the issue. Tell us why
based products, to the same degree of precision, is another"
Before you do anything else. Just answer this simply question.
If you cant, then s.t.f.u.
Wtriggle wriggle wriggle. Anything but face the music. Still haven't addressed the nonsense of your original claim have you ? I think we can all guess why.
You stated above, that my claim that "working in wood to precise lines was different to drawing same fine lines", was wrong.
That this claim was the basis of this whole "farago"
Because according to you, it was wrong.
From which it follows, that you are claiming that they are no different.
But if they are no different, then it follows that according to you, accurately cutting wood is no more difficult, and takes no more practice and skill, than does accurately drawing lines on paper.
I really can't see your problem with this, or what's so difficult to understand.
michael adams
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