The Washing Machine FAQ by Ian Tilley (Shrek) has been added at
Thanks very much for the contribution Ian. Can you email me your current address to editor (at) diyfaq (dot) org (dot) uk, please.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Good stuff. May we work on it? I ask as theres one piece of advice that doesnt work:
"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Do not attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."
This is not followable for a lot of us, as in many cases the only access to the plumbing and electrics is after the machine has been pulled out. This is quite common.
Also theres quite limited fault finding one can do with a machine thats unplugged.
NT
Yes, of course; comments, corrections, updates, additions are always welcome. Keep 'em coming.
Points noted.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Do not attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected, unless you are a competent with electrics. I would consider myself competent with electrics but I still got more than a few bites. The problem is that there are a lot of exposed live connections and they are very close to an earth source (the frame) I think this could be a potential danger and would still recommend leaving this last clause out altogether.
Perhaps just remove the "move the appliance, or"
Ian (Shrek)
connections
I guess its like a car: if you want to get anywhere you have to take it out on the road. One can get little fault finding done without plugging it in. I guess working on live wiring is something diyers should only do if theyre upto it, and some dont appreciate the risks or arent careful enough.
NT
Agreed about the last sentence, which is why I am reluctant to suggest on a public website that they should try it. Those that are competent don't need the FAQ's permission to do so, and I think will do it anyway, whatever the FAQ says.
However, with a half-decent meter you can do continuity checking with the machine unplugged (as it should be for that), so you can test the plug-top fuse, switch functions, pressure switches (with a bit of puffing), the element continuity and earth leakage, the door switch and it's heater, solenoids, thermostats cold side (and hot if you take them off and heat them up), pump continuity, harness and corroded spades.
That's most things except the timer integrity, circuit board and main motor isn't it? I would want to do most of these unpowered tests anyway, before trying the mains directly on any remaining items, like the timer motor to see if it is really ticking.
I have put up an update of Ian's FAQ to cover the other point of inaccessibility to an unswitched rear socket outlet. See
Further comments/suggestions welcome.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
suggest
good point.
there are way quicker ways
naa, use a proper browser.
inaccessible until the machine is pulled forward (see how >it should be done below). In this case turn off at the >consumer unit first. Do not attempt to move the appliance, >or fault-find while the power is still connected.
I hope youre kidding.
NT
Secret ways, are they?
Depends how you have your options set. Take a look at InternetOptions=>
Settings=> Check for newer versions of stored page...
No. In the event of a fault, as yet undiagnosed, it is possible for the case to be live, or become so as it is moved. Yes, this is a double fault where the case is not earthed either.
What is your point?
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
InternetOptions=>
I dont use IE, so dont need to use cumbersome key combinations to access simple routine commands. If youre using IE, I can recommend Opera, its about 10 years ahead of IE.
should be
just that its unrealistic advice. If you want to get into it,
If it stays in, I suspect it will result in people stopping reading and looking elsewhere.
Its not my faq tho. And its about time I stood myself up for all to criticise ridicule and abuse by writing one!
NT
I have come across numerous machines where the case has been live, this is because of the violent action inside the machine has caused a wire or component to become loose and touch the chasis. My dad actually went to one where they would only use the machine when they were wearing rubber gloves because of the shocks it would give them everytime they used it. He went to fix a blocked pump, they were quite happy to carry one using the gloves as long as he could get it going. Needless to say he sorted both faults in the same visit.
If people stop reading this FAQ and find one that has information or guidance that they might like, then I suggest that they already know what they are looking for. Safety should be the first priority.
Ian (Shrek)
Think you're a bit out of date there. Mozilla Firefox is the one these days. Try it, its pretty good. Notwithstanding that, IE is still the most common browser, hence my advice which is meant for the readership at large not just for clever clogs.
Apart from which, what I said is that you *might* have to a do a control-click on the refresh button. Can't be much simpler. The long string above is only to view or set what cache options are set - or doesn't opera offer that choice?
and the realistic advice is....?
Well, it's not mine either, I'm just the editor trying to help the author make the doc as useful as possible. If you have a contribution it's best made in a positive way by suggesting what it should say, not just carping on about your superior knowledge. So yes, get writing, put up an alternative form of words and lets see if it stands up to scrutiny.
So far I think the authors words are fine. It's no big deal to turn off the mains switch for 5 minutes is it?
Ahh... all is forgiven. Which one do you fancy?
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
It is, but Opera does everthing that does and more, and has done for years, and the nav controls are significantly better. So I still prefer Opera. (Its odd how many people think Firefox was the first with tabbed browsing!)
readership
Yes, youre right there
a) different route to get to the settings b) one key to refresh a page, F5
I guess just removing the admonition to turn the CU off. Maybe say 'unplug the machine if possible first.'
electrocution
yes, point taken
I cant imagine many following it. And I think you may find the risk introduced by powering off to be greater than the risk of pulling a machine out while plugged in. Consider the number of injuries and deaths from stair falls per year, compared to electrocutions. I really think its mistaken advice.
Yep, you'll get your chance :) I started writing something and might post it here to form a possible FAQ, but I'm unclear whether it really comes under diy or not. I think it just about does, if only just - will post later and see.
Once considered doing a period electrics faq, but that might be more a raq!
A lighting FAQ might be a likely candidate... or a part p faq?? But really I'm too busy to try those atm.
Is there by any chance some form of list anywhere of FAQs people would like to see? There must also be some FAQs elsewhere online, some good enough to save us reinventing the wheel.
NT
OK, I can see what you're getting at now. But consider this: A guy comes home from work to find wifey in tears saying she was doing the washing when water started pouring out from under the washer, then it smelt like something was burning, and then there was a bang and the machine stopped. Miraculously she knew where the stop-tap was and stopped the flood. This machine is 15+ years old by the way.
The guy is pretty clueless but luckily knows a friend of a friend who happens to know NT, and suggests ringing NT to ask if its ok to drag the machine out to look for the leak (non of them realise the significance of the other symptoms). I wonder what the answer would be.
Back to the FAQ in hand, perhaps we should extend the advise to assist safe turning off of the CU, e.g. get a torch, warn people not to move around in the dark, wait till it's daylight if possible, only turn off the relevant mcb, run a portable light from a different circuit, don't short neutral to earth even when power is off.... This could be a FAQ in its own right!!
Great stuff.
Part Pee has to be one.
There is a list of the ones I think people might want here
Google? There are a few in our FAQ at the bottom of the contents page
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
washing
significance
This is classic stuff. No matter what advice is given, it is always possible to write a scenario in which it could be wrongly followed and result in death. A lot of effort goes into this issue for professional advice givers.
Our job as writers here is not to eliminate risk, since there is in reality no such thing in this world, but rather to minimise it. This is especially true for DIY, which is a field with many significant risks.
I still say there is more risk in turning the power off than in leaving it on in this case. The real world numbers support that imho.
I also still say that if you look at the number of deaths from electrocution by appliances, guesstimate how many of those are caused by washing machines, then guesstimate how many of those one can expect to be caused by following a FAQ that doesnt mention turning your CU off, I think you'll find the number of deaths expected to vanish to nothingness, and beyond.
So firstly its a non risk in practice, and secondly turning stair lighting off is a known risk in practice.
We cant have a perfect world, but we can get as close as we can by facing, minimising, and managing risk.
If this were an american group we might need to do that. And then have another faq advising people how to safely read that faq: dont read it all in one go in case you press the down button so many times you get rsi... ensure youve got background lighting for your monitor first... have your monitor checked to see its EHT is not above specified so you cant blame us for getting cancer in 10 yrs time... ensure you're wearing your reading glasses... get your eyes tested so the glasses are correct... dont have your eyes tested, we're not advising you to do something which may cause you to be run over and may be found to have been unnecessary...
This almost belongs in the humor section.
Maybe we need a FAQ on risk management, it is a perennial topic round here!
rarely asked questions!
I think it does. But it will get controversial...
Perhaps a good way to address it would be to just compile a list of links to already written part p threads. It saves a lot of time, and avoids getting further into controversy.
Its good... really it shows the endlessness of it all.
We dont have a faq on screws and nails yet do we?
yes... which makes me think, we need a FAQ on builders. How to choose them, what you get, etc.
suggestions
Logically that seems like a good way to go, look for what already exists first. We might be able to fill many gaps that way. I'm sure we're not the only ones to write good faqs!
I recall reading what looked like a good faq on buying washing machines... lets see...
How good the advice is, I dont really know... busy enough already.
NT
...
Well, so far it's 2 vs 1, so in the absence of others coming forward to convince me to totally ignore the safety issue, I propose a re-wording along these lines ...
"The first thing to do is to unplug the machine. Whilst the machine has an unknown fault there is a possibility that the case may have become live, though proper earthing should protect against this. Quite often the machine will be plugged into a socket which is inaccessible until the machine is pulled forward (see below for a better way to install it). In this case switch off the power at the consumer unit or mains switch before pulling the machine forward to unplug it. Obviously this will cut-off power to other circuits or lights so it's best done in daylight. Take care that any other occupants are warned first of course, especially if the lights are going to go out.
Do not attempt to move the appliance, or fault-find while the power is still connected."
lighting is on the list.
...
Thought of that but they are all far too long. We need a summary.
Not quite, but there is this
Nice one - added it to my mark-up list.
- added it to my mark-up list.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
re-wording
ok, I'll agree to differ.
True. But we dont have one. Until we put one together, a quickie would provide readers with: a) all the information b) enough information quickly enough to realise there was something seriously amiss with part pee.
Bear in mind no-one has offered to put one together, and I suspect it will not be the easiest of FAQs by any means.
NT
If someone offers a few suitable google Part Pee hits I'll happily put them in.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Can't help thinking that's a particularly thorny area to tread at the moment. There's lot's of conflicting advice coming from different authoritative bodies. Other than saying it's a mess and there isn't a good concensus on what's permitted and what isn't without a building notice, I would not try to say anything yet.
I have only heard of one building notice mentioning electrical changes since it came into effect (moving a bathroom), and the BCO completely ignored all the electrical work on it, and was mainly interested in changes to the drains when inspecting. I know of another one going on now too, and I'll try and find out if the inspections/approval has taken any interest in the electrical work.
It may have settled down by the end of the year.
The recent edition of Wiring Matters seemed more sensible and less alarmist than most, and gave some useful practical examples of what is and isn't covered.
I don't know if they're PDF'd on the IEE site
Owain
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.