You have not a clue. Condensing boilers can go up to 109% efficiency. It is clear you were not chastised enough as a child.
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Ok. I've seen this figure banded about a fair bit (and not just from IMM and his aliases) - anyone care to explain in simple terms how this figure is actually calculated?
I'm assuming that I'm not likely to be getting a negative gas bill if I install one ;-)
Darren
Go on, explain how, we could do with a laugh.
(BTW, try to explain using the actual energy value for gas and not the "nett" one that excludes recovery of energy from the water vapour by-product of combustion)
When you completely burn gas, you create heat plus CO2 and water. The water will be in its gaseous phase. If you condense the gaseous water back into liquid water however, you can recover the heat released by the condensation (i.e. the latent heat of vaporisation).
Historically boiler makers stated efficiency figures based on the assumption that you could only recover the initial heat from the combustion process. Thus in effect understating the energy content of the gas.
Needless to say if you use the understated "nett" calorific value rather than the gross one when calculating efficiencies on modern HE boilers, you come out with nonsensical percentages (i.e. over 100%). Some folks in these parts seem to think this means you are defying the laws of physics and getting something for nothing.
Only in Dr. Drivel world... ;-)
Can I add that it has always been standard UK practice to quote efficiency based on gross CV, thus making >100% efficiency figures completely out of place here? The CV quoted on your gas bill is gross CV.
In some mainland European countries it's traditional to use net CV figures, with the result that condensing boilers can appear to be more than 100% efficient. Despite this, the only perpetual motion machine that has ever been made with (two) condensing (combi) boilers is called IMM.
WRONG! Stick to being a lecky nerd. The UK states condensing efficiencies over 100%.
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Part L of the 2002 building regulations insists that all domestic boilers be a minimum efficiency of 78%. Regular non-condensing boilers can only achieve maximum seasonal efficiencies of 80%. This regulation promoted high efficiency condensing boilers. An improved minimum seasonal efficiency of
86%, to be introduced in April 2005, now virtually eliminats non-condensing boilers. But they are permited in exceptional cicumstances, so they have not gone away.To make different heating systems comparable, the net calorific value of fuel is retained as a reference point. This means complete combustion without extracting the latent heat from condensation has a limit of 100% - regular non-condensing boilers cannot achieve higher than 100%. This results in condensing boilers achieving efficiencies above 100%, since the gross calorific value can be realised through condensation - extracting the latent heat from the flue exhaust. A theoretical 111% efficiency is achievable, however because of losses 109% is the maximum. Extracting this otherwise wasted heat from the exhaust is what makes condensing boilers far more efficient than regular boilers.
The peak efficiency increase is on average 19% over the best conventional regular boilers, although state-of-the-art condensing boilers achieve much higher figures. Seasonal efficiencies of over 92% and peaks of over 100% are achievable.
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Irrelevant. The fact is that you posted something in an authorative manner, presenting it as though it were fact. It was actually completely false. That your statement above is also phrased as though it were fact rather than your personal opinion and has been challenged by at least two people so far, suggests to me that little has changed.
The main point though, is that in January 2000, in the thread I referenced, you displayed an ignorance and lack of understanding of a very basic principle of fluid dynamics, yet within a few months you were presenting yourself to this group as a qualified and experienced heating engineer.
Therefore, in my opinion, nothing you say on this newsgroup has any credibility unless it is corroborated by others. I have noted over the ensuing years that such corroboration rarely occurs.
David
The message from "Doctor Evil" contains these words:
DrivEl you are an utter moron who doesn't have a clue about at least 90% of what you claim expertise on. Back in 2000 some kind soul took the trouble to answer your plea to have Latent Heat explained to you "simply" but it hasn't registered with you.
Claiming an efficiency of over 100% is just plain dishonest just as was using the Lower Calorific Value to calculate efficiency in the days before Condensing Boilers. It is however understandable and the numbers do add up unlike all the garbage you are constantly posting on subjects as diverse as the 90% less emissions that the stupid Prius of yours supposedly puts out though 70 amp loads on "ring mains" being normal to "average baths" of 80 to 100 litres.
Dave has been using a tag line recently that you would be well advised to follow. Something along the lines of when you have got yourself in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging but you won't of course. You have such a closed mind that the only things that ever get through are adverts.
Moron person, I never asked for anyone to ever explain it to me.
< snip inflamatory trolling babble>You should be locked up.
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Asolute crap.
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The message from "Doctor Evil" contains these words:
Lower C.V. Higher C.V. Higher/Lower
North Sea Gas 34500 38500 111.6
Kerosene 43300 46200 106.7 Diesel 42700 45400 106.3
Seems dIMM has been agoogling as in another response he quotes the theoretical maximum as 111%. But he also claims an actual of 109% which seems to me to be far too close (98%) to the theoretical maximum to be realisable. You don't get any of the latent heat out if the boiler is not in condensing mode and that doesn't even start until the return temperature is low (53C?).
The lower figures for oil might be one reason why oil fired condensing boilers don't have a high profile. DrivEl of course wouldn't even consider that his figures apply only to North Sea Gas.
Read my post of this.
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The message from "Doctor Evil" contains these words:
Don't hide behind your multiple personality disorder John. You may have been wearing your Adam wig back in 2000 but it as still you who posted the message I have repeated below and no amount of lying will get you out of that particular hole, so stop digging.
******************************************* Newsgroups: alt.hvac From: "Adam" - Date: 2000/01/13 Subject: Latent HeatCan anyone explain this simply.
cheers
**************************************
Like so many of your ramblings they apply ever so appropriately to you rather than than the object of your ire.
Like running 13 amp through 0.5mm wire. Only on the Internet do you get this.
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Bertie, fitters hate it and wouldn't have it in their own homes.
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The message from "Doctor Evil" contains these words:
DrivEl you are still being the complete moron.
Unlike the garbage you tend to post much of what you snipped was factual and calling it rubbish only reinforces the view that you by far the most stupid person ever to venture onto usenet. But keep on wasting bandwidth. The original posting remains for others to read and join me in laughing at the loon who is so stupid he thinks he is clever. When IQs were handed out I think they made a mistake with you and gave you a negative one.
Rip it out NOW. PEX is what you want, not some 2nd rate hot and cold piping that the maker jumped on the bandwagon with, claiming all sorts. PEX man, PEX!!!! Get that fitted NOW. Be very very frigtened, it will leak and your foundations will rot.
In the USA they have banned such pipe. Polybutylene plastic pipe, is banned in the USA because of catastrophic failures.
Throughout the 1980's lawsuits were filed complaining of allegedly defective manufacturing and defective installation causing hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. Although the manufacturers have never admitted that poly is defective, they have agreed to fund the Class Action settlement with an initial and minimum amount of $950 million. You'll have to contact the appropriate settlement claim company to find out if you qualify under this settlement.
"A series of reports have suggested that increased use of choloramines accelerates corrosion and degradation of some metals and elastomers common to distribution plumbing and appurtenances.
With regard to elastomers, the study showed that with few exceptions, solutions of chloramines (either monochloramine or dichloramine) produced greater material swelling, deeper and more dense surface cracking, a more rapid loss of elasticity, and greater loss of tensile strength than equivalent concentrations of free chlorine."
----Steven Reiber, HDR Engineering, American Water Works Association Research Foundation
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So for a condensing boiler, are the radiators reset to have about 25 deg C across them ?
This man is disturbed. He chases people all over the net and abuses them with pesdonal amil insults.
Roger, I am being very serious with you. Get yourself sorted out,. Get help. Please get help.
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