Double Glazing - Differences in Window Quality and Companies

I am currently going through the nightmare of getting quotes for double glazing and was hoping that someone may be able to help with a few queries that I have..

I have had a number of companies quoting on the job now with price ranges from =A31650 to =A34500. Everest Windows =A34500 Safestyle UK =A31650 Local builder =A31650 As you can see there is a massive difference in the prices, they all claim that their windows are the best etc. Can anyone tell me the essential things to make sure of when buying double glazing. I have heard things such as making sure that the windows are steel reinforced, made to measure rather than 'off the shelf' etc. etc. but not sure what actually makes a difference. Are the windows off the local builder likelly to be any less quality than the ones from the large company?

Also has anyone had any dealings with Safestyle UK or Everest? Has anyone had any good experiences with any fitters in the Manchester area?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Reply to
smokeyd
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AIUI very few DG companies make their own windows. They order in the frames and panels from a handful of large manufacturers, who in turn buy in the pvc mouldings from an even smaller number of suppliers, so I can't imagine the quality of the materials varies that much

Reply to
Stuart Noble

This looks like it may help you.

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Reply to
Neil

I think that's only true about the big national DG companies... certainly in my small town there are several independent firms who manufacture windows, and if required, fit them. (And incidentally, these are the sort of place I'd be looking at were I in the OP's shoes)

That said, I'm sure your comment about PVC moulding suppliers is true.

David

Reply to
Lobster

Take a look at this website, some good info on there:

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have recently moved into a house with wide range of double glazed windows. The Everest windows are the best, but this is probably more to do with the fact they are newer.

Reply to
gna03633

Have a look at Altrincham Glass. I had their Challenger series windows in my front upper and lower bay, installed by Cheadle Glass (not the best installers I have used - but not the worst either). I then had a private builder install their Settanta series in my kitchen when I refurbished. I like dealing with Altrincham Glass, you can buy the units yourself and know what exactly you are getting, and the price is very competetive. I have no quality issues with Altrincham Glass products, only with installers.

Have a look for yourself.

Paul R

Reply to
Paul R

If i knew in May what I know now I wouldn't touch Everest with a barge pole! We ordered 4 patio doors to replace 4 older ones, on 18th May, told to expect them within 6-9 weeks. Phone call at end of May to say they would arrive next day, so spent night clearing away funriture etc.

7.45am next day phone call said they'd lost 2 of the doors. Would get back to us within 4 days to set up new appointment. Heard no more until I spent an entire week at end of September ringing round call centres trying to find someone who could tell us when we were going to get doors fitted. (you don't ever find out the number of their actual offices) Told to 'get more logs in' if it was cold and promised each time that 'someone' would get back to us. By 10th Oct, patience waning, sent Rec Del. letter to Cuffley giving 'time of essence' and final acceptable date to be 18th October or contract ceased. 17th october rung by employee/fitter who said he would be coming next day, but oh dear, doors he had found, had now delevoped damage to guide rails. Would get back to us.... 22nd october sent letter regarding their inability to communicate and/ or install doors, as failing to fulfil contract thus wanted deposit back. Now 6 months since order. 1st November phoned by an extrenemely arrogant and patronising employee who claimed that Everest have legally 6 weeks to install our patio doors FROM DATE STATED IN "TIME OF ESSENCE" (In other words date your patience runs out )

She informed us that, if we don't allow access THEY will sue me for balance of monies!! They will come, she said, 5 weeks 5 days after final demanded date and still be wtihin law. No apology, no excuses.

Oh yes, one great line, I pointed out they had variously lost them, damaged them, and more and was told that this made them a great company as this proved they "didn't send out sub standard products"!!

If I could find a way, before 10th Nov ,to get out of this, i would! However not so sure of legal position though I do feel Consumer law should make 6 months unacceptable for delivery.

MOTTO: if you still want to order them, send a recorded delivery letter to their Cuffley HQ, giving a 'time of essence' with final date of installment 6 weeks before you actually want them!!

Worn out, fed up and would dearly like to put Ms "I-know-our-Rights" in her place.

Janet

Reply to
jan

Based on the track record so far, I think that they will screw up and not complete the work totally and perfectly before the 10th November.

A few suggestions:

- I'm sure you're already keeping a log. I'd recommend keeping a digital camera available to photograph any damage to the products or to your property, collateral or not.

- Don't accept anything other than an absolutely pristine outcome. Don't sign off the work to suit them.

- Be prepared that you will have to fight for one.

- Be a squeaky wheel. Keep them on a short leash with time measured in days, not weeks.

- Withhold the remainder of the payment until after the work is complete and your are totally satisfied. This is key. Installation teams and regional managers etc. are measured on their completing work to get outstanding monies paid.

- Let them threaten legal action. Don't be intimidated by it.

- At the point that they are demanding payment, as long as any outstanding issues amount to a value of less than £5k, make them a payment such that there is £4995 remaining. This is a switch point between a small claims action and main court. This won't go unnoticed by their legal advisors.

- Write a lengthy letter to their solicitors pointing out all the issues and the history of what happened. Make counter claims for the tiniest defect. Make sure that it's very detailed and runs to many pages. This will increase their legal costs because it will all have to be read and reviewed. The clock for that runs at £200/hr plus. Let the exercise cost them as much as you can.

- Don't bother trying to claim for time off work or anything like that unless you are self employed or otherwise demonstrably billing your time. The courts won't award compensation for ordinarily employed people.

- If the letters start talking about offering you some kind of discount or something in kind with the words "Without Prejudice", you have the clue that it has become a commercial negotiation.

- Another trick is to send thm a small payment with the letters periodically, making the comment that it is an offer in good faith. Then if they have started to make court applications, they will have to change them because the amount outstanding will have changed. Of course that is all part of the negotiation.

- £2 spent on the Companies House web site will get you the names and addresses of all the directors. Send copies of all the correspondence to them at their home addresses. No need for Recorded Delivery for these. Put their names on the cc. list of all letters.

- For good measure, see if you can find the name of Ms "I know-our rights", her supervisor and so on up to the director. Make sure that they receive copies of all the correspondence.

Above all, Nil Illegitimis Carborundum. Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Nonsense I'm afraid. There is no single legal time limit established in contract law that governs whether a 'time is of the essence' notice is a reasonable notice period for a given contract. It depends on the facts of the case and a court would look at all of these in making its decision. In fact common sense would tell you that cases differ in their complexity so a notice period must also do so.

Your one week's notice would probably be construed as unreasonable but 21 days is a normal notice period in legal matters and after a delay of several months would no doubt be considered more than fair for a contract which will only take a day or so to fulfill when the parts are actually available. Clearly if you gave one week's notice for works which would take more than that to complete and haven't yet started it would be deemed impossible to comply with.

However when you go off half-cocked without the requisite legal knowledge and give an unfair notice period you shoot yourself in the foot. You're now at the point where a second reasonable notice period would put you past their 6 weeks anyway.

I'm sure you can either ask for further and better particulars in uk.legal.moderated or Google for "time is of the essence."

Reply to
Dave Baker

In article , Dave Baker writes

Yes I concede that point Dave, though by then I had spent a LOT of time and effort ringing any number I could find that was to do with Everest. We were only able to get call centres. However I would have thought that after 6 months the doors should have been made and as it is only a 1 day's job, been installed. Not forgetting that we had, up until last week, never heard from the actual company since signing our order in May. I guess from what you are saying, we don't have a case and we have to let them walk all over us. I just hope other people are warned about them.

Janet

Reply to
Janet Tweedy

On the contrary, Janet. You have a lot of options....

Reply to
Andy Hall

Seriously, take Andy's advice.

Reply to
Stuart Noble

I'm sorry to hear of your problems. I used Everest many moons ago for secondary glazing in a new house with much satisfaction.

I also used them later to install a secure uPVC front door to a new build house with no problem. I used a local double glazing firm to replace our rear door with no problem, for the same reason.

Recently, we decided to replace both our guttering, bording and windows with plastic to avoid the ladders in our later years.

Used Zenith/ StayBrite. They came on the right day, riped out windows without checking the sizes of the new windows and lo and behold one had been manufactured a brick course too tall. What did they do? Ripe out a course below the window to temporarily replace the original! The quality of the brickwork on the house is a particular feature. Me happy, I think not!

I'm still awaiting a date for the replacement window after 10 weeks. Fortunately, we do have enough spare bricks from the original build to replace those destroyed. I just hope that the mortar merges.

Reply to
clot

Hi. Just out of curiousity, what branch of Z?

Reply to
Mike Barnard

Oops, pressed "post" too soon.

If it came out, why would it need bricks removed to make it go back in? Me non comprende!

What branch, and what's the quality of the rest of the stuff gone in so far? Apart from the one issue of the wrong size and bricks, (important though it is) what was the quality of the rest of the installation?

Reply to
Mike Barnard

In article , Andy Hall writes

The mystery is why they have opted for a Saturday? All other dates that we have been given have been weekdays, though saying that, none have them have been fulfilled up till now:)

A brilliant idea Andy and one that I have now started. I have photographed the current doors and the surrounding brickwork etc just for starters so that I can compare the before and after.

I will also consult a "contractual law" specialist/solicitor on Monday. I was considering parking my car in the drive (behind their van), until they have finished but I expect, though it will make us feel better, it would be deemed illegal in some way or other :)

Unfortunately I am intimidated by it! Silly really, logically I know you are right but formal threatening letters ARE intimidating and we have heard awful stories from people who have been placed on bad debt list due to legal fights such as this. (This is no doubt what Everest are hoping.) However your advice and list of things we can do has been really helpful and does strengthen my resolve to not just cave in.

Well the outstanding amount is 3,000 anyway as it's only a 4-paned patio door.

Yes I can do that ! Though how do you find their solicitors?

I've got hers now, if anyone else needs to know, (it's 'apparently' Ms Lorna Lobo "Customer Service supervisor, Heathrow Branch) I also have a phone number if anyone needs it. I have also now got the directors' names from Company House and your suggestions have been really helpful Andy. Maybe there should be a Group FAQ based on your suggestions giving an overview to sorting out DIY problems such as this.

Thanks again.

Janet

Reply to
Janet Tweedy

In article , clot writes

Yes, actually when we came here in 1979 we had the original patio doors done by Everest and secondary double glazing installed in order to protect the 'look' of the house as it's 1930. Bout 8 years ago we did actually have a local company replace all our windows as the Crittal metal ones were cracking the glass and becoming dangerous, though aesthetically speaking it was not what we wanted. We were worried in case anyone got hurt! The patio doors we are now replacing as they are no longer easily opened on their tracks (in fact twice in the sunnier weather I nearly lifted one out of its tracks!) and the glass overall is quite cold to sit next to.

What's been particularly annoying is that since may we have had no curtains up, the furniture moved back and the stuff outside moved just in anticipation of an imminent instillation by Everest!

Reply to
Janet Tweedy

In message , Mike Barnard writes

Isn't that a bastardisation of You don't understand me?

Or perhaps, no le comprendo.

Reply to
Si

I don't think they have. They are just counting the days. This is an indicator of stupidity.

Yes I understand. However, they are bullying and there is no excuse for that. If they were squeaky clean then that's one thing, but they aren't. The school playground bully moves on to someone else if you square up to them. Here you have a bully with thousands of customers who is playing the numbers game. They are driven by procedure and push back.

That's fluff. Nothing seriously happens unless they go all the way through a court action and are awarded a judgment. The credit scoring agencies like Equifax weight all these accordingly and a threatened legal fight doesn't have the same impact as a result. For example, let's say I forget to pay my Amex bill one month. Big deal, there's a black mark until I pay it the next. Set against quite a large number of accounts that are maintained in good order it means nothing.

If I didn't pay Amex for 6 months or all of my accounts were in bad order, then it would be different. Bad credit scores happen if you don't have very many accounts and one goes "bad" or if there is badness across a wide range of accounts.

Unfortunately this can mean that someone with one bank account and one credit deal can end up with a bad score. However, don't be put off by this - the credit rating agencies know full well that the DG firms are not Snow White.

This was partly why I suggested taking photos and making notes. If you are dealing with facts then it's easier to detach yourself from the moral blackmail of the supplier.

It's not to say that you should make yourself ill about it (it's not worth it) , but they certainly do rely on people putting up with second best.

OK, so you can sit on that.

Easy. They will write to you. Alternatively they may push the issue off to a debt collection agency. These are particularly nasty lowlifes who will additionally threaten. They work through PO Boxes and anonymous phone numbers. This is more intimidation. If it happens, think of them as the accounts receivable department of the supplier. They are paid on results - purely mechanical. Send them the letters as well - that will go to the supplier. At a certain point, the collection people will refer the matter off to a solicitor working for them. In most of these cases, the standard process is designed to deal with people who haven't paid and haven't communicated. Either they get scared into paying or they get taken to court and receive a judgment. It's a numbers game.

As soon as you raise a flag by writing to them with your list of issues, it will be referred back to the supplier. The reason that the supplier uses these people is to be able to apply some heat to non paying customers who have no excuse.

That's quite funny. "Lobo" in many languages is the word for wolf.

I'm not suggesting that any or all of this will work, but I've provided a reasonably comprehensive list.

At the least, if you document and photograph everything, that is a detached thing that you can do without confrontation, and I can completely understand when people prefer to avoid confrontation.

However, armed with the evidence, you have a powerful negotiating position if you want to use it and it costs basically nothing.

Be careful if you get into professional advice. It can get very expensive very quickly. On the other hand, if you spend £200 to protect £3000, that may be the right thing to do.

Actually I did this once as a learning exercise and it was money well spent. The amount at stake was £50k and professional reputation. Afterwards I realised that a lot of it is that you are buying a lamp post that is bigger than the other party's.

For the case that you have, really there are two aspects:

- Slow delivery and messing around

- If they don't produce a pristine job at the end.

You are a long way down the track on the first aspect and they may or may not by incompetence, give you the opportunity to cancel.

Given that you can't or choose not to cancel, then the focus is on making sure that they deliver perfection. After all, they have told you that this is what they will do and have charged you accordingly. it's very hard to say that and underdeliver, isn't it?

Reply to
Andy Hall

Not sure. We've had calls from offices in Nottingham, Derby and Leicester!

Reply to
clot

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