Door latches/locks for unsprung door knobs

[Michael Kilpatrick]

Our builder has, much to my annoyance, fitted a mortice sash lock on a new bedroom door and two bathroom locks on two other new doors which are not capable of supporting unsprung door knobs. We have some nice brass knobs to use.

I had absolutely no idea about this nonsense. I just wanted to slap a nice brass door knob on the door, but no, some idiot decided that they would make door locks with insufficient spring strength.

Anyway, I deduced, from the catalogue, that the unit fitted was a Union "2295" 2 lever mortice sash lock: about the cheapest damned thing possible.

We therefore need to change it for a different unit with a decent spring, but I've had to email Union to ask which unit to get, as the catalogue isn't explicit as to which ones take unsprung handles/knobs.

Needless to say, the various units are all different sizes. There are dozens of models. At least it's possible to get them with the same backset/centre measurements, but the positions of the bolts, the sizes of the faceplates, etc, are all different.

What's the likelihood I'll have to tell the builder he'll have to get new doors because the old ones can't be modified to fit a different sized unit?

Michael

[Unbeliever]

Did you actually tell him (or the architect) what you wanted at the planning stage?

Perhaps you lack sufficient knowledge and information to know that there are different types of locks and latches - and if you didn't tell the builder precisely what you wanted fitted on each door, then the fault is yours and you are the "idiot" that carries the blame!

If the builder is not told otherwise, other than a simple mortise latch, this is a standard fitting on a bedroom door - simply to give you some privacy when there are children in the house.

Why e-mail Union, when you could simply ask your builder to tell you the differences between the different types of lock?

You are simply making a mountain out of a molehill - almost all mortice latches and locks will have sufficient spring pressure to operate a simple door-knob setup - unless the knobs are rather heavy, and something will usually still fit anyway with minor adjustments.

Unless you told him exactly what you wanted at the planning stage (or he fitted something contrary to your instructions), the builder is entitled to charge you for any extra works - including the cost of new doors and locks. As a matter of interest, all doors can usually be "modified to fit a different sized unit" fairly easily by a skilled carpenter.

So why not talk to your builder about the problem, tell him precisely what you require and then let him sort it out - in almost all problems of this type, new doors are not needed [1] as locks can generally be found to suit the housings.

[1] With the exception high quality of polished doors, as any making good can be difficult to hide.

[A.Lee]

I'd say they are either very cheap mortices, or, more likely cheap knobs. I had the same earlier this year. Even though a pair of knobs was £10 (trade price), they were rubbish. Looked good, but nowhere near smooth enough. I changed the mortice for a much better quality one, and it was still the same. Changed the knobs for a £25 pair, and they were fine.

I'd tell you it wasnt possible to do that unless you wanted to pay for them. If you supplied the knobs, I'd tell you they were no good, and you'd need better quality knobs. Most mortices and locks can be changed without damaging the door surface anyway. Alan.

[Dave Osborne]

It's not nonsense. If you have too strong a spring pressure, then young children and old people have difficulty operating a lever-type handle and absolutely no chance of turning a knob.

Obviously, you've never come across this before and the builder has reasonably assumed that you will have sprung handles, which the vast majority of domestic handles are.

[Michael Kilpatrick]

[snip]

No, that simply isn't true. The modest friction within the knobs (which are small ovals, not heavy handles) appears to be far too much to return the knobs after release. And it's clear from the literature, having now looked it up, that some units clearly state that they are appropriate for sprung levers/knobs only, others for unsprung ones.

It's also very simple to observe that all the old mechanisms in the house have much stronger springs than the new ones and they were perfectly comfortable with those knobs.

I'm just baffled as to why anybody would want to move the springs from within the latch mechanism to within the handle itself. That's the design decision that "made a mountain out of a molehill", as it instantly -and obviously - means that various old handles which are not sprung cannot necessarily be used with a lock that is only for sprung handles.

I mean, the latch has to have a spring anyway, so the end result is that for sprung handles you have *two* springs (or three, if both handles of a pair are sprung) rather than just one.

Michael

[Michael Kilpatrick]

I doubt they were cheap originally (whenever that was). For a start, they have a screw-on rose so that the fixing screws are hidden. You don't get those for £10, as far as I can see.

Michael

[Michael Kilpatrick]

Funny you should talk about duff knobs. After writing my previous reply to you I then went to fit the two thumb turn locks (on 5mm spindles) to the bathroom and toilet doors. They were the only ones I could get in Cambridge, from Ridgeons, this afternoon. Almost £15 each. Brass, but not stylistically matching the knobs. They are made by Dale.

Good enough until I find better? Apparently not. They weren't even made properly and I had to ream out the hole in one of the roses so that the thumb turn - which itself was deformed - would fit properly. Two identical units and one them had two glaring faults.

Quite unbelieveable. Four noddy bits of brass and a steel square spindle, and they can't even make it correctly!

Michael

[Pete Verdon]

Maybe, but it's absolutely standard. Every handle I've ever removed from a door has had a spring in it.

Pete

[Michael Kilpatrick]

Well, OK, let's distinguish between knobs and handles. At least for handles of any substance there's more of a physical reason why you might need a spring.

However, it doesn't take long looking at door knobs online to see that there are a plethora of unsprung door knobs available.

Furthermore, it's very easy to find "unsprung door handles" online.

Some of the only sprung knobs seem to be those such as the (cheap) ones the builder bought a couple of to show me. They came in pairs which are both sprung. Together they are horribly stiff - and that's when combined with a catch with the weakest spring possible. Obviously you notice the stiffness more with a round knob than with a lever.

If you put one of those cheapo sprung knobs together with one of my old unsprung brass knobs on the other side, you get something which is about normal in terms of spring weight (and that's with the weak-springed mortice lock that the builder fitted, not a heavily-sprung lock).

Michael