Failure on insulation calculations

First question - my first stopping place for insulation u values was the DIY Wiki. They don't seem to be there which surprised me - or should I have looked elsewhere other than in the obvious place 'Insulation' ?

The reason for the calculations is convincing a disbeliever that he should insulate his workshop. Single brick structure, to be lined with OSB on a 75mm framing. But how do I calculate the heatloss across such a 75mm cavity without any insulation - do I need to take into account convection ?

Any helpers please

Thanks Rob

Reply to
robgraham
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Hahaha... leave it one winter...

1 - Insulate walls AND ceiling AND floor 2 - Not insulating the floor gets calf muscle ache all night long 3 - Vapour barrier is important

U value of wall...

- Find the R value for 1 brick

- Find the R value for various insulation types of various thicknesses

- U =3D 1 / (R1+R2)

So 20mm marmox (R=3D 0.60) on uninsulated cavity wall (R=3D0.73) gives a combined U of 0.75. An uninsulated cavity wall on its own is 1.37 so nearly halves the heat loss. Makes warm up very fast, plus when cavity wall later insulated it jumps further. No point using plaster anymore on external walls, Marmox is quicker and almost anyone can skim 3mm with a bit of effort... belt sander... angle grinder... expanding foam.

Actual wattage differences, for 21oC internal temperature...

- Calculate wall surface area

- Calculate U value of wall

- Heat Loss =3D Area * U * 21 =3D Watts

So for example a 5.31m^2 wall with 50mm celotex (U=3D0.40) has heat loss is 45W, without the celotex a solid 9" brick wall is 235W. That shows how even a little insulation helps hugely - consider four such walls and you've 1kW heat loss BEFORE considering your door, draughts, windows, floor & ceiling. Doing 50mm celotex on those four walls saves

0.8kW.

Do a Google for "R value" and look for single brick. You have to do an estimate for the studding re "cold bridging". Simplest is to stick a piece of 25mm XPS over the studs before the final plywood or hardboard. B&Q do lots of cheap(ish) insulation at the moment.

Reply to
js.b1

Erm, yup try "heat loss" - perhaps a few redirects might not go amiss. Anyway:

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Reply to
John Rumm

Thanks John, for the pointer - as you say there ought to be one on the 'Insulation' page.

js - I take it that what you are saying is that a single brick, 75mm stud wall with OSB facing is going to have the same insulation value as a single brick wall with no lining at all ?

I don't believe that. And what's more that's not going to help my discussion with the 'Disbeliever' who is expecting figures from me to satisfy the argument.

Rob

Reply to
robgraham

Not really. single brick is about 7 U valeue wise. insulation should bring it down to 0.5. Even with windows and a door, overall value should be no worse than one or two. Probably at a rough guess from 200W/sq meter floor area in winter to 50W/sq meter.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

No. a single sheet of plasterboard makes a lot of difference.

Cant be arsed to work it out, but likley a 50% reduction in U value. I lived in a single brick plus 2" rockwool and plasterboard, and that is pretty good.

Old cottage I rented, 3mm of oak tiles on exterior kitchen wall completely stopped condensation. single brick is DIRE - almost anything makes it better.

Out of interest, I calculated the thickness of a stone castle wall needed to reach modern U values. It was either 3 meters or 6 meters.

Those ice age people who lived in long barrows, weren't stupid, it seems. Nor are castles necessarily the cold places we think they might have been.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

No, it will be better, just nothing like as good as with insulation.

You NEED to check the following R values, grabbed off Google.

Uninsulated Brick + Cavity + OSB..

- Single brick - R =3D 0.12

- Unventilated Cavity - R =3D 0.18

- 18mm Plywood - R =3D 0.70

- Combined R =3D 0.12+0.18+0.70 =3D 1.00

- Effective U =3D 1/R =3D 1/1 =3D 1.0

Four wall surface area =3D 4x 3 x 2.3 =3D 27.6m^2

- U value of uninsulated wall =3D 1.0

- Internal temperature =3D 21oC

- Heat Loss =3D Area * U * 21 =3D 27.6*1*21 =3D 579 Watts

Insulated Brick + 50mm Celotex + OSB...

- Single brick - R =3D 0.12

- 50mm Celotex - R =3D 2.63

- 18mm Plywood - R =3D 0.70

- Combined R =3D 0.12+2.63+0.70 =3D 3.45

- Effective U =3D 1/R =3D 1/3.45 =3D 0.29

Four wall surface area =3D 4x 3 x 2.3 =3D 27.6m^2

- U value of insulated wall =3D 0.29

- Internal temperature =3D 21oC

- Heat Loss =3D Area * U * 21 =3D 27.6*0.29*21 =3D 168 Watts

Assume perfectly insulated floor, ceiling & windows.

- Uninsulated - 579W =3D 7p/hr cost

- Insulated - 168W =3D 2p/hr cost

Assume 100 day winter, 2hrs/day

- Uninsulated =3D =A314 cost

- Uninsulated =3D =A34 cost

Assume 100 day winter, 8hrs/day

- Uninsulated =3D =A364 cost

- Uninsulated =3D =A316 cost

The reality is uninsulated will not have perfectly insulated floor, ceiling & windows.

- 2hrs/day becomes =A342 v =A312

- 8hrs/day becomes =A3192 v =A348

Additionally, overnight heating re frost & condensation may be required.

- It is here that uninsulated becomes a money pit

- You are background heating for 22/16hrs a day which adds up

One other comment re insulation on the inside:

- Insulation on the inside =3D fast warm up, no thermal mass

- Insulation on the outside =3D slow warm up, high thermal mass

For a workshop insulation on the inside is probably best.

- Background heating - tube heater on Smiths Plug-In Thermostat

- Boost heating - wall mounted FX20VL fan heater (thermostat), floor industrial jobbie etc

That way it gets warm very quickly indeed.

Reply to
js.b1

Typo...

Assume perfectly insulated floor, ceiling & windows.

- Uninsulated - 579W =3D 7p/hr cost

- Insulated - 168W =3D 2p/hr cost

Assume 100 day winter, 2hrs/day

- Uninsulated =3D =A314 cost

- Insulated =3D =A34 cost

Assume 100 day winter, 8hrs/day

- Uninsulated =3D =A364 cost

- Insulated =3D =A316 cost

The reality is uninsulated will not have perfectly insulated floor, ceiling & windows.

- 2hrs/day becomes =A342 v =A312 insulated

- 8hrs/day becomes =A3192 v =A348 insulated

Typical figures re wall 30% of heat loss, uninsulated floor/ceiling/ window and insulated floor/ceiling/window to equivalent of 50mm celotex. It comes down to how often it is used (2hrs/day or 8hrs/day) and whether frost protection is required (which really costs with uninsulated). Assuming walls are roughly 30% of heat loss and insulated example copies the 50mm celotex (or equivalent).

Reply to
js.b1

Many thanks js - that's a tour de force. If that doesn't convince my mate, then he deserves to freeze to death !!

I'll just punt that across to him as it stands; no point in me doing the work again - I'm really grateful.

Rob

Reply to
robgraham

There are other considerations in a workshop as well. With a well insulated place its easy to keep a heater in there on a frost stat. That can help ensure you keep the temperature above the dew point, and hence stop all your tools getting damp and going rusty. Alternatively you need to mess about with heated cupboards etc.

Reply to
John Rumm

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