You hit the nail on the head. Those here who talk crap about buying £200 Makita's for DIY work are making forlorn attempt to justify an expensive purchase.
Many here wear CAT and DeWalt boots, then go down the pub and attempt to be the he man.
For DIY I see none except were high precision is required. A £30, 40, 60 drill/driver does the same as a £200 DeWalt drill/driver. Only a fool pays £200 and leaves the tool in cupboard all year.
No it is the DeWalt and CAT boots men on the front.
You say this repeatedly, but you ignore real-life stories from those of us who have owned both cheap and expensive tools.
I've owned (and still do) a wide range of tools, some cheap and some expensive. Most of my tools are Bosch green or blue.
The two tools I use the most, the SDS and the combi, are DeWalt and Makita. The reason for this is simply that I found the performance and longevity of cheaper tools unacceptable.
I have several tools which fall into the cheap category, like my table saw and my chop saw. These don't get the same level of use as the other tools, and as such, I've found it hard to justify spending a lot on good ones (as much as I'd like to).
I also don't understand your statement "Those here who talk crap about buying £200 Makita's for DIY work" - not because of the incorrect use of an apostrophe, but because I don't get the difference between DIY work and professional work.
In our case, DIY means a complete house renovation, a 3 year project. We work on the house every weekend and most evenings. The whole of the interior, including walls etc. has been removed/replaced. In addition, we have a range of other projects on the go - stables, workshop etc.
So how and why is this DIY work different? Why should I want to use an inferior tool, that doesn't work as well and requires frequent replacement? Even if I don't attach any value to my time (which I do), the cost of the materials we've used on the house probably outweighs the cost of the tools by 30:1. And that's including some very sensible purchases of quality tools. How is this a problem?
I think for you DIY use means the kind of pictures you see in magazines, with some guy up a ladder wearing a DeWalt belt using his £300 DeWalt combi to put up a shelf. If he uses his combi say 6 times a year to put up a few shelves, then I'm inclined to agree that the purchase probably wasn't very good value for him. But this isn't what DIY means to most of us here. We actually do stuff. We use our tools.
The same as me. In the past 3 years or so very cheap good quality with excellent long guarantee power tools have come about. If buying again, for DIY that is, I would not consider the top makes, unless precision is paramount. They are an expensive waste of time for DIY, even heavy DIY.
That is obvious. And my spell checker put the apostrophe in. Pro work is used heavily virtually every day. DIY work once in a while. For pro work I would go for Makita, Hitachi, Kress, etc, but not DeWalt. For DIY, what is the cheapest available for the usage and specification. For e.g., I would not power a drill./driver unless it had two batteries and a ONE hour charge time. That puts it into the semi-pro, pro price category.
PPPro give 3 year guarantees, when finished if they still work it is a bonus, if they fall apart then they have paid for themselves. Also generally you can but 2 PPPros, and still have lots of change, for one top range drill. You could buy two of each and still be ahead of the game. financially. and all those spare batteries and chargers too.
Assuming low price so it doesn't work well. This is an incorrect statement.
3 year guarantee helps there.
Not as heavily as the day to day pros, they do need Makita and Hitachi.
Why would you assume that DIY work implies a lower standard of work than professional work?
The trouble is that they don't. In the £30-60 tools:
- Speed control is poor
- Balance and weight in use is poor
- Batteries have poor output and have a poor lifetime
Why would you assume that DIY equates to occasional use?
.andy
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This depends on how you value ease of use, longevity and quality of the result.
I would try some new software.
So basically you are saying that your first and main purchase criterion is capital outlay........
The correlation to price for most tools is one of precision, performance and ease of use. The amount of use factor is secondary but implicit in a well engineered design and manufactured product using good quality materials. This costs money.
Apart from two factors. 1) the hassle of returning faulty products and
2) that quality of use is equivalent, which it is plainly not.
If you look through comparative tool reviews, you will almost always see the global branded products coming out as highest performance including ease of use and precision. Typically they come out as best value for money as well, although one sometime does see the cheap OEM tools as having good value for money on grounds of low price. Rarely to they come into the top quartile on performance. There is a strong correlation of performance and quality to price.
With all the time wasted on trips to the DIY store, waiting in line etc.?
Duty cycle is but one factor.....
.andy
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Ureeka! I do believe he has it. Precisely the point I was making about things like routers and jigsaws. I would add to that occasions where operator fatigue is an issue.
Firstly, why do you equate DIY with low usage? I am sure that for many people's usage that will be true, but not all. I have plenty of tools I expect to do a full days work six or seven days a week at the moment.
Secondly, a 30 pound drill driver will not behave in the same way as a high quality tool. Yes it will make holes, and yes you can stick a screw in with it. However it will have less torque, significantly less endurance per charge, come with a poor quality charger that will knacker the already poor battery supplied in short order, it will have a less repeatable (if any) torque limiter, the chuck will be of lower quality - grip less well, and require two hands to tighten or loosen. It may be either too large to use for screwdriving comfortably, or too heavy to use all day. The speed controller will certainly offer less control and chances are will not support any feedback control.
As I said - if you accept those limitations and can live with them, then buy the cheap tool, you have nothing to loose. However if you can't, then accept you need to buy a better one.
This is a fair point, and if that is what you do with most of your tools then you are probably better of buying the cheap one (unless it is not up to the 3 jobs you need it to do per year).
I did not assume or imply that. Please re-read.
Trouble is, they do.
Would he de DIYing at work as well? In the evening many of you types need to lean on the bar with your DeWalt boots on spouting crap about pouring drives.
Please re-read all the threads on this topic.
That is a useful suggestion.
First one is, does it do the job. The DIY tools will, then capital outlay.
Most DIY tools do not require returning.
It is. The DIY products do the job.
You mean the advertotials, not reviews.
What is all this time? Most DIY tools do clap out inside the 3 years guarantee, otherwise they would not sell them if every one came back broke.
The main one for them.
I have always had it.
Because they don't use them all day for their living.
For 99% it is true.
Are you a pro using these tools?
What else do you want to do with it?
That may be the case, but there are different levels of DIY quality too. The there is the low price need of the pro tools. A;All offering improvements somewhere.
That is a fair point.
I am sure plenty of people doing it themselves will be using the tool just as intensively as a "pro". I can't see that the fact they are not being paid to do the job has any bearing.
Quantity and pattern of usage is only one criteria, as you said yourself, accuracy / precision may be more significant in other cases, and price in yet others. Any one of them may be a critical factor in your decision making - but it is unlikely to be the same factor for every purchase.
I am a pro, but my profession is not building. At the moment I am using my tools all day every day - I expect that exceeds or equals the quantity of use that a builder would make of them. Your point being what though? You seem to be equating quantity of use as the sole factor here. Some of my "pro" tools I chose because it was the only way to get the accuracy I needed - quantity of use did not come into it. Some of my cheap tools I chose for that reason alone - they were not going to get that much use and accuracy was not that important.
1) Stick in the next 400 screws after the first without needing a charge 2) Drive 5" screws through roofing deck without running out of torque 3) Drive screws through insulating board and stop with the screw head countersunk to the same depth every time 4) Be small and compact enough to get into tight spaces, be well balanced and ergonomically designed, run without vibration. Have an auto rotation lock and a chuck that will let you change bits with one hand. 5) Come with at least two (prefer three) good quality batteries made from matched cells, so I can use it non stop, so its runs at maximum performance until the last 30 seconds of charge, and does not risk reverse biasing a cell. Have a reasonable expectation that replacement batteries will be available in five years time. 6) have a 45min charger with delta peek detection so as not to wreck the batteries. 7) Have the power and finesse of control to use with a 5" hole saw, mixing paddle, 3/4" screws into euPVC, and a 400mm auger bit through solid wood. 8) Not break when I accidentally tread on it
That would depend on how well you want to do the job and whether you care about ease of use.
Presumably to the standard you require.
So the lines that I have seen in B&Q with people returning broken PPPoo tools are Scotch Mist?
Your job and to your standard perhaps.......
I mean the reviews from multiple sources.
Not really true. The sheds play the numbers game and hope that use will be very small and/or people are too busy to return and/or they have lost the receipt and/or they forgot that it is a 3 year warranty.
It may be for you....
.andy
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They will all do then job.
Few power tools are difficult to use.
Which is the highest standard.
Stop making things up.
The highest stadard.
Advertorials.
You are making this up as you go along.
No, for them.
Expense does not equate to quality of work, as the old saying goes 'A bad workman always blame the tools', a skilled person can do a decent job even with crap tools as his (or her) skill and knowledge enable him to compensate but give an incompetent person even the best tools and he will probably mess up big time. Are you really saying that if 'Frank Spencer' [1] had been given the best tools money could buy he would have been any better at DIY ?...
[1] assuming most readers know who I'm referring to.
?????
- Speed and torque control on cheap screwdriver/drills
- Guidance with a cheap jig saw.
- Clean and decent cuts with a cheap router.
etc. etc. etc.
Ah.
I visited one this afternoon to return some paint that was excess to requirements. There were four people in front of me and three had broken PPPoo stuff.....
can't be done.
I can tell the difference between a review and an advertorial even if you can't.
Clearly you don't understand volume retail product distribution.....
.andy
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":::Jerry::::" wrote | Are you really saying that if 'Frank Spencer' [1] had | been given the best tools money could buy he would have | been any better at DIY ?...
Michael Crawford, the actor who plays Frank Spencer, is actually very accomplished at DIY according to his biography.
Owain
This isn't what I said at all.
A skilled person *may* be able to get better results out of crap tools than someone less competent, but crap tools are still crap tools and ultimately limit the quality of work.
A reasonably skilled person will *certainly* be able to get better results out of good tools than crap ones.
Somebody who is totally useless will probably not get good results out of either, so may be wasting their money in buying better quality tools.
I did say that there is a substantial correlation between cost and quality of tools. This should not be at all surprising.
The examples of drill/drivers and especially jig saws and routers have been often quoted and are the experience of many.
Why people seem to equate DIY with cheapness, cheap tools, once in a blue moon activity and poor quality work, I'm not sure.
It isn't my understanding of DIY.
.andy
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On the very cheap tools probably yes. but decent tools arte available at reasonable prices.
The precision point.
The precision point.
Ah
I don't believe you. I have been to B&Q service counter many times and not once has anyone been in front with any power tool. Stop making things up.
Can.
You can't.
Stop making things up.
It is.
Exactly. Makita for example.
Not really. It is pretty much a case of whether many jobs can be done or not.
If you had ever tried to use a cheap 12.7mm router you would appreciate that they are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. If the cut isn't clean and decent, then the tool is worthless.
I really don't care whether you believe me or not. I know what I saw.
It's behind you.
Sigh.....
????
.andy
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