calor butane

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

where can you get 15kg calor butane bottle refill cheaper than £41.75 ?

[Brian Reay]

Have you considered investing in one of the legally refillable propane cylinders?

The Safefill ones are probably the best for none vehicle use and I think the cheapest. The initial cost is high but you refill them at a garage selling LPG ( about 68p a litre I think). A kilo is about £1.40, allowing for the density of propane.

Safefill Cylinders come in various sizes, I think the largest is 10kg.

There are others, but you need one garages will allow you to refill outside a vehicle unless you have a motorhome etc. Some are designed for installing in motorhomes or caravans. (Not to be confused with under floor tanks.)

You need to do the sums, even with our usage, the numbers don?t really work in our favour to invest in refillable cylinders.

[Tim+]

Not long back from New Zealand where many garages have the facility to refill cylinders by weight. Spent 5 weeks in a motorhome there using gas just for cooking and paid $4.60 (about £2.30) for all the gas we?d used. This was a ?standard? gas bottle, not a special one in any sense.

Wish we had a similar access to refilling in UK and Europe!

Tim

[Brian Reay]

The SafeFill cylinders are probably the closest.

There are others but the SafeFill is ?stand alone?, no extra pipes for filling etc. The others are generally designed to be left in the vehicle while being filled via a filler cap. I think one of the other makes is going the SafeFill route but I?m not sure. They can be refilled in Europe but you need the adapter for the pump.

Initial cost is high, about £180 for a 10kg capacity cylinder.

Here, the refillable ones have a ?cut out? which limits how much you can put in them (80% of their actual capacity). The normal cylinders don?t have the cutout. Some people do refill the normal ones anyway by manually limiting the quantity etc but, legal issues aside, garages don?t ?like it?. Even filling legal cylinders can be a issue. (I?m going by what I?ve read and accounts vary- I don?t have refillables and stick to exchanging.)

We have 2 X 6 kg cylinders. Typically we spend 3+ mths traveling a year and maybe use one. I pay about £15 as we have a discount card for the place I use. I also have a French Le Cube which I carry instead of one of the 6kg cylinders. I fill (exchange) that when needed. You can?t exchange UK Calor cylinders in France. In real terms, the Le Cube is just insurance- I bought it when we got our first motorhome and wasn?t sure about gas consumption etc. We tend to cook outside in the warm weather using a small stove or BBQ. If we need the heating in the winter we use electric. We rarely run the fridge on gas. We do cook on gas but, all in all, our consumption of propane is remarkably low.

Having said that, I?m still considering a refillable, the ability to fill up ?anywhere? may be worth it, even if we don?t save on gas overall.

[Tim+]

It?s the fridge that swallows up most of our gas in our own motorhome. In NZ the fridge was a 12V compressor driven one. The van had a solar panel but we were never ?off grid? long enough to determine just how long it would run for. It certainly worked well.

The garages all have weighing platforms at their refilling points which is why they can fill standard cylinders.

Tim

[Jethro_uk]

Can't speak for Europe, but for the UK, the cost of kit needed to provide a filling service is rarely covered by the volume of business done.

I have seen some cylinder filling kit at some installations which have a main LPG tank. But that's not permitted for trade use (you need approved and certified kit).

If you live near a friendly farmer who has the setup for cylinder filling, you might be able to reach an informal arrangement ....

[Brian Reay]

You mean besides those on garage forecourts selling LPG? They can be used to fill suitable cylinders.

In particular, Safefill have some 'arrangement' with Morrisons- more to ensure users don't face the 'you can't do that' type of problems some do at other places.

The issue here is the common cylinders lack the required 80% cut-off feature to prevent overfilling. In theory at least, if you have a cylinder with one, you should be able to refill it on a forecourt selling LPG for cars.

Based on what is posted by those with such cylinders, problems seem to arise where attendants aren't familiar with the current regs and/or are concerned the cylinders are the correct type. There seems to have been some changes to the regs which haven't received all forecourts, in particular in relation to 'free standing' cylinders as opposed to ones in lockers in vehicles with an external fill point etc.

Your comment re farmers is interesting. I've seen videos on Youtube where people 'tap into' bulk tanks like those you see in country areas etc. by houses etc. Not something I would recommend or try!, although if some like a farmer has a proper refilling facility etc that would be another matter. I wasn't aware they were used in the UK. I know a couple of farmers and will ask- more out of interest, I don't use enough gas to worry about the cost.

As an aside, there are from time to time, shortages of cylinders and the exchange system fails. People either stick unwanted ones in the back of garages, dump them etc and they aren't enough in the system to refill. Part of the problem is the various companies don't allow you in general to exchange other cylinders. Plus the fittings vary.

[Tim+]

That?s very probably true but it?s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. If we had similar easily accessible cylinder refilling by weight garages could get rid of their cages of full and empty bottles gas companies wouldn?t have to cart loads of cylinders all over the place to return them for refilling and we?d all just be popping down to our local garage for a refill (like buying fuel for out lawnmowers) much more frequently.

It has to be said that motorhomes and gas barbecues are very popular in NZ.

Tim

[Brian Reay]

The sums don't seem to work out. I often think people don't factor in the initial cost or perhaps they just use a lot of gas.

[Jethro_uk]

I'm not referring to the equipment required to do the filling, but to do the selling. Unless you have trade approved scales, how are you going to be able to sell by weight ?

Not just farmers, but anywhere that uses LPG powered vehicles like fork lifts. Some bigger outfits have LPG tanks to refill cylinders at will. But again, that's not for public trade.

All the hallmarks of the free market totally failing to satisfy the consumer :)

[Brian Reay]

Ok.

True, although I suspect there is an element of the dreaded Health and Safety in there. Not that some isn't needed.

[alan_m]

Or a country where the majority of people are on mains gas and don't have to rely on bottled gas for day to day cooking or heating.

[Brian Reay]

BTW, as a form of heating, the small cylinders (including the 15kg size) used to be a very expense compared to even electricity. I think Which did a comparison some years back using cabinet fires which take gas bottles. Not to mention the issues with CO, moisture etc.

The fires are effective for 'instant' heat- we had one I used in a garage with no electricity years ago- but, if you have access to mains power, it is probably cheaper to use a fan heater.

Of course, if you want some kind of central heating, not all systems in caravans etc are dual fuel but they are available. Truma do a few but there are others.

People do refill the normal, non-refillable, cylinders but it is illegal and can be dangerous. They lack the 80% auto cutoff so they need to check carefully how much they put in. Plus they need to find a garage that either doesn't check or doesn't care. No, I'm not recommending yo try it. I've seen a (very) small tank explode*, I dread to think what a big one would do.

*Many years ago someone threw a lighter fuel one on a bonfire. It may even have been 'empty'. Metal everywhere. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

[Brian Reay]

Really? Fittings are usually brass....

[Muddymike]

My local LPG station does, but the cylinder has to be completely empty and the capacity clearly stated on the cylinder.

Ive not worked out how they account for the volume sold to cars against the volume sold without road duty being charged for cylinders.

Mike

[Brian Reay]

I've seen mention of places which 'turn a blind eye' but equally of others which aren't keen to allow people to fill cylinders with cutoffs.

They probably don't.

In fact, I'm not sure if they is a different rate on LPG used for road use vs other uses.

[Tim+]

Indeed they are, but all Calor cylinders (and I guess all flammable gas cylinders) have a plastic plug in the valve body designed to melt at a certain temperature to release the gas.

Tim

[Jethro_uk]

The whole point of LPG for road use was the low duty - which I imagine comes from it being primarily a space heating fuel.

Quite aside from the loss of boot space involved in a conversion, I wouldn't trust the government to whack up the duty if LPG ever showed any signs of becoming popular. Luckily despite it's perfect environmental credentials, the lack of any scams (so far) involving LPG have meant it's remained pretty obscure as a greenie champion. Now solar panels on the other hand ...

[Tim+]

Not really. Every Calor gas cylinder I?ve had has a plastic plug designed to melt (or burst) at high temperature/pressure. It?s usually located opposite the threaded gas outlet. Go look at one yourself or look at mine.

Tim