Big digger v. little digger

[Roger]

Avid readers of this ng will know that I am on the lookout for a cheap digger but I remain undecided as to the type to buy and could do with some impartial expert advice on the subject. The more I think about it the more I think a mini digger will best suit what I have to but I still have some doubts on various aspects.

I have decided to up my budget to £3000 but that is still very much the bottom end of the market, particularly for a mini digger.

With a full size digger the choice is really which particular JCB but there is a bewildering range of mini diggers from a considerable number of manufacturers so I would like to know which manufacturers have a reputation for reliability or perhaps more pertinently which manufacturers to avoid.

I don't suppose the machine will ever be used outside my smallholding and my neighbours farm but even that might require moving the machine half a mile so is it realistic to expect a mini digger to travel such a distance under its own power or do I need to budget for a trailer as well?

And then there is the question of stability on steep ground. Most mini diggers seem to have no stabilisers and some of them have a very narrow track so is a certain minimum track advisable? And if so what?

And finally any particular recommendations.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Roger writes

I would have offered my JCB 3D but you said distance costs:-)

Anything that old is not going to cheer up any elfin safety person so you are restricted to own jobs. The ability to move muck 1 ton at a time may not be an enormous benefit if you do not have the space to manoeuvre a large machine.

Can't answer that but you might factor in the value of a 4 in 1 bucket for levelling/scraping and the forks for any pallet work. I don't think you get either with a mini.

regards

[Piers Finlayson]

Roger,

I too am interested in this topic.

I have a couple of comments:

- I recently seriously toyed with the idea of getting an old JCB (one was going cheap nearby), but decided against it, as the thought of a JCB with wheels on my muddy fields was a bit of a nightmare. (SWMBO's hysterical laughter at the suggestion follow by a "oh, you were serious" didn't help). I decided in the end that if I do get something it will - be small (not blumming enormous like a JCB) - have tracks.

- If you're lending the digger out to neighbours, could you expect the neighbours to sort out the travel arrangements? (And if you're just going

1/2 mile down the road do you really care about having a _decent_ transport solution?)

Piers

[Roger]

The message from Tim Lamb contains these words:

Don't tempt me. IIRC you are somewhere like Shropshire. 150 @£3/mile is

10% of the increased budget gone. (Incidentally I don't understand the difference between a 3C and a 3D).

I do have access to a Zetor tractor with a bucket on its front lift. No good for digging and will only shovel loose stuff but much better than the wheelbarrow and shovel alternative.

Some mini diggers have a dozer blade which presumably is some help levelling even if they might not have enough weight to shift anything well compacted.

[Roger]

The message from "Piers Finlayson" contains these words:

I have also wondered what would happen with something as heavy as a full size JCB on soft ground. I don't know for sure how much they weigh but one advert claimed 7 tons which must be at least twice the weight of my neighbours tractor.

Not thinking about going on the road at all. That was half a mile across the fields and it would be me doing the driving, not my elderly neighbour who won't even drive his own tractor. What I am concerned about is wearing out the tracks unnecessarily and dying of boredom getting to the other side of his farm and back again. I have only ever seen mini diggers move at a snails pace. Being retired myself I have plenty of time to help out but life is too short to spend half a day travelling half a mile. :-)

[Bob Mannix]

You want a Bobcat! See:

just type "bobcat youtube" into Google

[The Natural Philosopher]

Ive done extensive levelling with minis and a 3.5 tonner.

The blade sort of works, but you end up digging the big humps out and spreading. I.e. none have the tractio to really BULLDOZE.

what a big digger will do that a mini cant is

- go deeper. Ponds are not much use if they are only a few inches deep.

- lift heavier. if pu are diggong rock and masonry it may not come in pint sized chunks

- pull up bigger Trtee roots work well with a digger, but there is a size limit.

What a little digger will do that a big one cant is get into small spaces, and fall over. Its a great way to dig a garden bed over though.

There's just as much o go wrong on a little one as a big one, and it all costs about the same. Except the tracks. They cost more on the big bastards.

Go for the biggest you can fit.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Any tracked digger I have hired moves at a walking pace only. 3mph roughly.

So abut ten minutes to do half a mile.

They aren't designed to tavel. They are designed to dig, oddly enough.

[Dieseldes]

A friend of mine a few years ago bought a rusty old JCB (cheaply) from a seaside town, drove it 90 miles (Oban to Glasgow!) that was hairy!! used it to dig foundations for an extension, while welding up the cab! sold it and with the profit bought a mini digger which 20 years or so later he still uses.

Des

[Roger]

The message from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

I have seen several at work and none seemed anywhere near that fast.

Hence the query about needing to budget for a trailer as well. I could use my neighbours tractor to tow it around.

[Roger]

The message from "Bob Mannix" contains these words:

I also want to dig trenches.

[Bob Mannix]

Oh they do a digger/tracked version - can't do the acrobatics though

[John Rumm]

I had a 1.8 ton bobcat excavator a while ago. I think I prefer the Yanmar version. The bobcat did not have the same lifting power, and the seat practically crippled me! (had to put a board over it and a cushion on it in the end.

[John Rumm]

You will need to read my comments in light of the fact that I have only used a few of the smaller machines personally (and talked to a friend who ran a groundwork business so had used a few more). I don't claim any expertise in this area!

Lots of people seem to like the Yanmar ones - good engines and they seem to punch well above their weight. Many of the local hire places do those and Bobcat as the mainstay of the smaller machine lineup.

well 3 - 4mph is going to be top whack - so 10 - 15 mins each way.

The smaller machines have a lower centre of gravity as well - however they can certainly *feel* less stable since it only takes a small hill to put you at a steep angle. The ones with a dozer blade can be made significantly more stable by lifting the front of the machine off the ground on that before digging. (or if digging on a slope, have the blade at the lower end and using it to level up the machine).

The smallest machines (800kg ish) sometimes have tracks that can be moved in and out to allow access through narrow gaps, but made wider when being used for better stability.

Bigger machines tend to be smoother and less jerky to operate. The only real attraction of the smaller ones is storage and use in a confined space. I guess if I were keeping one as a pet, a 1.5 to 2 tonne machine would be a good compromise - big enough to do useful work and still small enough to drive through most gates (about 1m wide). If you have the space and don't need the narrow access then something bigger.

The classic JCB backhoe loader layout is probably a very versatile all round machine, although probably not as flexible in use for pure digging.

[Bruce]

You have not said what you want it for. Surely the type of work to which you will put the machine will define which machine you need? And if you don't even say what it is, how can anyone advise you?

The most sensible choice in backhoe loaders is a JCB for easy availability of spares. Obviously get the newest and best condition that you can afford. The earlier ones were not especially reliable even when new. Anything less than 15 years old is a better bet if you can find one within your price range. Try to get one with a 4-in-1 front bucket as it will doze, load, pick up (clamshell) and act as a forklift, hence 4-in-1. Incredibly versatile.

The most sensible choice in backhoe loaders is (probably) a Kubota for sheer reliability. Make sure you get one that hasn't been used in heavy civil engineering - tunnelling contractors buy them new and use them until they break, after which they end up on the used market. The mini-excavator can only do two things, one of them badly. It will dig well, with the obvious limitations of shallower maximum digging depth, lower power and smaller bucket size when compared to a JCB. If is fitted with a dozer blade, it will doze extremely badly. Those blades are tiny, and there is very little control - you cannot see what you are doing. But they do add a lot of stability when digging.

The tracks are not made for travelling long distances, more for moving around in a small, confined area. Tracking long distances will wear out the tracks very quickly. The tracks are tiny and the bearings are just too small for arduous travel. Track repairs are expensive - it is usually cheaper to fit a service exchange pair of tracks than repair your own but you will get whacked for any damage to the pair you exchange. Wear and tear is accepted but not damage. So a trailer is indicated in order to reduce the distance travelled.

As I said before, without any idea of what you want the machine for, it is impossible to recommend one type over the other. But in general, farm/smallholding use would suggest a tractor-based JCB, and work on confined urban sites (or shaft and tunnel digging) would suggest a mini-excavator.

In another post you asked what was the difference between a JCB 3C and a 3D. Here's a page that tells you:

don't recommend you buy from this company as, while the machines may be within your budget, they sill probably be slightly too small for your needs. ;-)

[Bruce]

The classic Bobcat is tremendous fun to drive, but it doesn't offer a digging attachment. The Bobcat tracked loader is also unsuitable for digging - the view from these loaders is very restricted indeed.

The Bobcat mini-excavators seem OK - I suspect they are made under contract in the Far East - but the spares availability is nowhere near as good as the Kubota, which is the King of mini-excavators.

[Roger]

The message from Bruce contains these words:

My original draft included details of what I wanted to do but on reading it through I came to the conclusion that I had made the case for a mini digger rather than a full size JCB so I deleted the detail. For some of the work a JCB would be a better bet or just as good but with 2 of the jobs lined up - excavations for a ground based heat pump in the narrow confines of my garden and rescuing a trampled flat drainage ditch among mature trees a full size JCB would make the job much more difficult.

First job to be done is to reroute a troublesome land drain. This really needs to be done this year. I need to dig a trench about 80 yards long and I am now too old to do that by hand.

If I do revert to searching for a JCB I think I would need to up my budget a bit more to get one less than 15 years old.

That is one of the points that was bothering me and in the end may well make me switch back to a big machine. Mini digger plus trailer is likely to push the budget up to £4000.

I live on a steep hillside and the track down the hill on my neighbours farm was originally made for horse and cart (as are some of the original gateways). The track has already been widened but it may need further work to get a JCB down it and at one point it might need re-routing as I am not convinced the shelf cut into the hillside would stand 7 tons and have no wish to go tumbling down a 1 in 1 slope.

Perhaps not. :-)

[Steve Firth]

You need to budget for a trailer. You need to be aware of towing limits, which will affect your choice of size of digger.

A trailer for a mini-digger could cost you more than your budget.

FWIW, I'm looking for the same thing, but I will need a trailer to haul the digger across Europe. I have concluded that there are many "cheap" mini diggers on the market but I suspect that the cheap ones are coupled to some sort of scam, because the prices are far too low for the condition of the machine.

As to which one, I've been looking at Kubota and Yanmar, simply because I've used devices with engines from those makers and the engines are robust and reliable.

Another alternative is a PTO powered back hoe, if you already have a tractor. Howevr most of the ones I see for sale are rubbish and generally don't have a slew ram or even decent levelling rams.

You miight consider micro diggers of 3/4tonne ish. But they are limited in depth and capacity.

[dmc]

Not quite the same, but

some diggers that appear to have sunk impressively :)

Darren

[Graeme]

In message , Roger writes

How about an old caravan chassis? Old caravans are fairly often available via Freecyclye.

My own trailer is a basic caravan chassis, comprising the original angle iron (?) frame, with boards (the original caravan floor) on top. The load bed is 10' 8" by 6' 4", although I have no idea which type of caravan it came from, as I didn't complete the conversion myself. Conversion is too strong a word - it is really just whatever was left when everything above floor level was ripped off.

Mine managed 500 miles from Aberdeenshire to Hertfordshire, then back again with a Morris Minor on board, without any problems. Just needed a light board, which was screwed to the rear. I did arrive home minus one mudguard, though :-)

I would think something similar would be ideal for towing a mini digger across a field with a tractor, perhaps running the trailer wheels on lower than normal tyre pressure.