Badged Power Tools

[Chris Bacon]

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.

[insert space]

I refer Mr timegoesby to a comment I made earlier.

[Andy Hall]

So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?

[Chris Bacon]

Don't be obtuse. Read what I included from timegoesby.

[Andy Hall]

I'm not being obtuse at all.

There are several ways to deal with a reliability issue.

a) Buy a cheap tool. If it breaks during the warranty period, you still have to take the time to return it and/or buy another.

b) Buy two tools. The first one breaks and you use the second. Considering that the first has been unreliable, it is more likely than not that the second will be as well and might even fail after a short time. This is even more likely if both were from the same batch or made around the same time. It also doubles the cost to the point where a better quality tool could have been purchased, better results had and more reliability as well.

c) Buy a good quality tool in the first place. Reliability and longevity will be better in something that is designed for regular, professional use. That's the whole point. Manufacturers of these tools have next day spares back up for parts and repairs are easy because product design is done well.

d) Buy two different professional tools with some degree of functional overlap. For example, I have a Bosch Multidrill SDS/conventional drill. It mainly gets used for heavier weight work but can happily deal with mid range work as well such as larger wood drilling etc. I also have a chunky 18v Makita cordless drill. That will do up to and including quite a lot of masonry work if it has to do so. I think that this is a far better solution to a) and b) especially as quality of use and result are also better and the reliability of better designed and manufactured tools is higher in the first place.

[Chris Bacon]

I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby, who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case". You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to have made a c*ck-up.

[Chris Bacon]

So, Mr. timegoesby, what tool do you use that you keep the backup SDS for, as a matter of interest?

[Andy Hall]

Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a professional tool.

Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional application? It's a nonsense.

[usenet]

What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different from 'professional' brick walls.

The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application is the same.

[Dave Fawthrop]

|Andy Hall wrote: |> >I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby, |> >who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. |> >It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case". |> >You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to |> >have made a c*ck-up. |>=20 |> Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is |> pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a |> professional tool. |>=20 |> Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional |> application? It's a nonsense. |>=20 |What the ?|"=A3$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes |holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different |from 'professional' brick walls. | |The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have |different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application |is the same.

As I drill a few holes occasionally I class myself as DIY and buy accordingly. =20 If I were to drill a few holes per day, I would class myself as professional, and pay a lot more for ?professional? tools in the hope = that they would last longer.

--=20 Dave Fawthrop

17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! Yorkshire Dialect go to

[Chris Bacon]

*Did anyone actually read what timegoesby actually wrote?*

[Andy Hall]

In the case of an SDS drill, related to the volume of work.

Incorrect. It would depend on the amount of work. A large project or series of projects undertaken on a DIY basis - i.e. by an individual for themselves as opposed to paying a professional may well require the same amount of work with a given tool as a professional might have. A professional quality tool is much more likely to be able to tackle a large scale project without failing or burning out than a toy drill from Aldi.

Not necessarily. The user may well have requirements that have nothing to do with whether they are doing the work for themselves or professionally. For example, I want a tool to have good ergonomics and ease of use behaviour. I want to be able to use it all day long if necessary without waiting for it to cool down.

[Andy Hall]

Yes.

"I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me."

Would you think that it means anything other than having two SDS drills?

[meow2222]

I think there are many differences really. Longevity first, a cheapie tool used once a month will last a diyer maybe 20 years, but in day in day out pro use it might be dead within a month. Not only will your tools ahve short lives, but there will be replacement collection costs too. The economics are fairly different.

Then there's quality of end result. A kinzo mitre saw wont give you the same dead-accurate angles as something pro. Its not bad but not perfect. Taking that further, many tools are of such poor quality theyre just not able to do various jobs. Basic tools dont always pass pro standards, whereas for occasional diyers with lower standards theyre mostly accepted.

Then theres time. A cheapskate cordless will take much longer to do larger jobs than a quick charging high capacity multi-battery higher efficiency dewalt.

There are other quality issues too: cheap angle grinders vibrate like hell, which is fine for a job here and there, but not use all day every day.

Finally there's image. If you turn up on a job with the same tools the customer's got, theyre likely to think they could have done it themselves, and next time may well try. Show up with professional expensive looking tools and the business stays yours.

NT

[Andy Hall]

Possibly. However, that is assuming that longevity is the only factor.

Yes. If one values time, that is significant.

Possible. However, to say that DIY equates to low price and acceptance of poor standards is not reasonable.

It might suit the manufacturers to position products in that way, but people should not feel fobbed off with the notion that DIY implies third rate results.

This is the ergonomic issue.

That's possible, although I don't thonk that it should be a major reason for purchase of professional tools. However, I think that the thought makes sense. Image and showing confidence do matter.

>

[timegoesby]

You missed the point. I have a pro SDS and the =A325 Aldi SDS is for backup for when the SDS breaks down. I have burnt out DeWalt and Wickes SDS drills. SDS drills don't like abuse and constant hammering. I ran the Aldi SDS and it appears to work OK. No holes have been drilled with it yet. If it gets me through the time to get another pro SDS then it is well worth the =A325.

And prices that exceed Makita. Screwfix now sell them. I will wait for reprts on that range. I suspect they will be Ryobis underneath.

I have burnt them all out. DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, cheap no name makes. I have always been impressed by the odd cheapie that lasts far longer than I thought for buttons.

My long term plan is to go the one battery way, as there is less to carry around. Middle brands are as good as the so called top pro stuff. I have not ever bought Altas Copco or Panasonic, as the price made me look away, so my experience is Makita, the Wickes Kress, Bosch and DeWalt in the top prices. I assure you, none of these tools bounce, and the thought of bouncing a Panasonic would be too much to contemplate, so middle branded stuff it is, as they are cheap enough to replace.

[timegoesby]

Appears they never. Mr Hall went off on rant again. It is cheaper to pay =A3125 for a Wickes SDS and an Aldi SDS for backup than =A3200 for two Wickes. I was surprised that the Aldi SDS has a 6 month pro guarantee and 3 years DIY, not that would use the pro guarantee unless the Wickes crashed and then the Aldi. I am on a Wickes SDS which is made by Kress. I like Wickes as they are everywhere and sell some decent tools at decent prices. If a distress purchase then you can't go wrong with Wickes. They don't have a one battery tools systems. If they did I would standardise on their stuff.

[John Rumm]

I had a play with one of these in the shop the other day (out of curiosity since various people seem to rate them).

To be honest I was a bit dissapointed really - the feel of the tool was simply not in the same class as the Makita HR2450 I am used to - it is bigger, less well made and the controls were not as nice. The speed controller was also poor in comparison. It did not seem to have the flexibility of locking off the rotation of the bit in hammer only mode at any angle of your choosing either. The killer however was the price - coming in at 15 quid more than the Makita!

Not convinced by this... they have badged some quite decent kit under their "pro" livery. For example their 1/2" router is a badged Freud FT2000E, only they routinely want about £15 more for it than Screwfix will charge for the real thing.

[Andy Hall]

Not at all, just looking at the issues laterally.

If you are talking about the Wickes product, it is not in the professional category at all, but pretty much at the Ryobi level, which is not professional either.

The DeWalt one can be repaired very inexpensively.

That depends on what you buy. I've used my Bosch blue one pretty much all day on occasions, and it has no difficulty at all with that.

But you're not buying a pro product with the Wickes SDS offering.

Granted the initial outlay of this plus the Aldi thing (which I would not have felt was much of an insurance policy) was not great; but looking at the whole picture and over a period of years, I think that spending say £200 or so for a Bosch professional product would be a sound investment when longevity, ease of use, not having to spend time returning under warranty or shopping around for replacements are taken into account.

The manufacturer is the same, that we know.

My personal preferences are Makita and Bosch for drills etc. Also, the range of different Milwaukee products available in the UK is not as great as in the U.S.

However, I have side by side compared roughly functionally equivalent Milwaukee and Ryobi tools while in the U.S., and really the differences are quite obvious.

Referring to the FWW Annual tool reviews that I mentioned earlier, Milwaukee does continue to score high in terms of best of breed, while some times Ryobi scores based on "value" - with value taken to mean that price is a large part of the decision. FWW does a decent job of reviewing. For each one they have a small editorial panel and then also do a reader survey of several thousand users. The results are presented alongside one another. There is then a scoring table out of

5 and a winner for best on test and best "value". Generally the editorial and reader conclusions line up to the same or adjacent products in the points leagues. There is seldom large discrepancy.

I also try to do my own comparisons and then read the reviews afterwards. Again, generally I am not too far away from the same conclusions.

I wonder what you're doing......

I'd be amazed. However, I prefer not to waste time on the off-chance. It takes a minimum of 1-2 hours to get a replacement/refund and that adds up to a lot of money.

There is good sense in that.

The trouble is that they are not if you take all of the issues such as control and ease of use into account and the long term cost of ownership.

Panasonic, with their 15.6v drill has been well regarded and reviewed for a very long time. The main reason is the battery technology which substantially exceeds the 14.4v typical offerings of other manufacturers for little or no extra weight.

I don't look at the purchase price, within reason, as something to put me off, but rather the TCO over a period of time. Therefore I look at service and spares arrangements as important factors and how well the product feels and performs. Then I consider whether the price is acceptable for what I want and look for the lowest I can find on the selected item.

My concern with Panasonic is that their range is relatively limited.

OK. I simply don't rate any of Wickes products like the others you mention. Even among the major manufacturers, depending on tool type, typically one is better than the other. Generally there is quite long term consistency on that as well, until a manufacturer comes out with some revolutionary new feature or piece of technology with a new model series.

This is another point.

With the branded manufacturers you can get the spares and good service.

I'll give you an example. Some while ago I managed to knock my Metabo orbital sander off of the bench and broke the front handle.

I looked up the part and pricing and IIRC it was about £5. I ordered it and it arrived the following morning. Free of charge.

[Capitol]

It can be possible to get the same service almost, with cheaper tools. I recently needed a part for a Toledo saw (Fermi rebranded). I had to pay a nominal sum, but the parts turned up couple of days later.

Regards Capitol

[Andy Hall]

OK.

Also in 5 years time?