Badged Power Tools

snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells, so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit, based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing, finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK. Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups, lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world. Lower price no longer necessarily means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower margins and mass marketing.

Dave

Reply to
david lang
Loading thread data ...

This sounds to be more of a combination of wanting to retain profits in Denmark and the high direct and indirect costs of employment there.

That's how it works in part of the consumer market.

Service, support and spares from B&Q and Machine Mart?

Even £200 isn't a throw away price for a pressure washer, is it?

The fault is with the product manager in my view. He didn't think about putting some differentiation in the product, or didn't think about all the markets - i.e. does the brand carry more value in Denmark than the UK?

This is classic private label procurement stupidity.

Clearly the colour didn't matter.

The right solution would have been not to have attempted to compete in that price range in the market with an obviously identical product if the total product value can't be communicated to the customer. That can be done by somebody working for the branded manufacturer as long as they have direct customer contact or customers able to discern their value proposition. It's unlikely to work through a volume distribution channel. That's a marketing game, not a sales one.

The mistake was trying to compete in the wrong part of the market. If you have a high cost base, generally the choices are to reposition and reduce the cost base to compete with the dog eat dog environment of the volume retailers or to make a specific decision not to compete in that part of the market and go for higher margin business if it exists even if that means moving into new differentiated product lines.

In the tools marketplace, the branded manufacturers have a variety of strategies to compete. Service offering is one, build quality, innovation and design are others. Lifetime pricing is another. For example, the very good deals around on older Makita drills at present. That's before one gets to offshore manufacturing with suitable quality controls.

The mid market branded professional tool manufacturers (e.g. Bosch, Makita, DeWalt) have pretty comprehensive marketing strategies and appear to execute them well. They only compete on price in fairly targetted ways and channels.

The upper end of the market (e.g. Festool, Lamello, etc) are able to command good prices through product quality, innovation and engineering excellence on top of these things. You don't see deep discounts on them. They've identified their customer base and channels and address them correctly. They don't have the volumes of B&Q etc. but do have a more sustainable business strategy and will likely be around long after Kingfisher has dumped B&Q and Techtronics finds another volume outlet for its stuff.

Product managers have a lot to answer for.

Reply to
Andy Hall

I have noticed Makita and DeWalt SDS drills being sold for under =A3100 and at prices only 5 years ago cheap DIY SDS drills were being sold at.

I have no brand loyalty and buy as needed, which is usually a distress purchase. I now have no reservation in buying B&Q own brands. They look and feel well made. I like the idea of the one battery type for all tools idea. Riyobi and DeWalt push this. I find it irritating having different chargers on the go. I may go this way with Ryobi and build the tools up as I go along, as many here speak well of them abd being well priced with the products to match. The Riyobi Impact driver is well priced and I may get one soon to see how they go. That should save me some time. They are small enough to act as an angle drill, as I regularly have to drill joists for plastic pipe and cables.

Reply to
timegoesby

ly

Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices down, and most likely quality up. Cutting out middle men will also bring prices down as well. Price is not a true indicator. I know, I buy lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the items I buy and that included tools. After reading this forum I popped into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as equal to many costsing 10 times as much.

It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying. If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

Reply to
timegoesby

I know it can be that way, but is it always? Or is there in reality a lot of same case plasticine geared tools around? I thought there were, but am open to correction if that isnt done.

Thinking about the ryobi/pppro choice, they'll cost me the same in the end after transport.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

I know it can be that way, but is it always? Or is there in reality a lot of same case plasticine geared tools around? I thought there were, but am open to correction if that isnt done.

Thinking about the ryobi/pppro choice, they'll cost me the same in the end after transport. And I never want to be seen with a pppro!

NT

Reply to
meow2222

I have no idea. Look at their web site.

Have you actually owned, used or even looked at anything they make?

That's pretty obvious but depends on what the so called "middle men" do. If it's simply distribution with no added value, then certainly. If it's a support and service organisation, that is a different matter.

Price is *an* indicator, but doesn't replace researching the purchase properly.

Well yes. A sack of cement is, well, a sack of cement.

That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low) price.

One has to look at the whole product offering and then to decide whether that is worth the price being asked.

Reply to
Andy Hall

That's because volumes have increased all round.

That's a bad situation in which to make any purchase, especially of a tool. It's very important to research properly to get the best value for money.

I've looked at and tried some of their products as well as the Ryobi ones, in quick succession to those from Makita (e.g. drills), DeWalt (e.g. routers) and in comparison, the TTI products are not well made. TTI's Milwaukee product is the best from their stable.

Gearboxes and clutch and speed and torque control on Ryobi drills feel a bit better than the entry level products, but are not as good as Makita, and nowhere near as good as Festool. The TTI routers are very poor in terms of plunge mechanism and motor performance. Several people here have returned them.

Most manufacturers offer that within their ranges. More important is to look into the battery quality and longevity and whether one can buy tools without batteries at all. That can be a significant cost saving.

Ryobi has "reasonable" products for their price point. In tool reviews from numerous sources (worldwide), their products, where reviewed, typically come third or fourth out of ten. Seldom first, and seldom bottom. In reviews such as those in Fine Woodworking,Ryobi tends to score slightly higher on value for money than on best product.

I was just looking through FWW's annual reviews on various hand power tools.

TTI's Ryobi brand came near the bottom on biscuit jointers. Their Milwaukee product did well in angle grinders and circular saws, but Ridgid (TTI brand sold through Home Depot, similar to PPpro offerings) was at the bottom. In 14.4v cordless drills, Milwaukee did well, alongside Makita and Bosch. Ryobi was close to the bottom.

In SCMS, Bosch, DeWalt and Makita were the leaders, and Ridgid were markedly behind at the bottom.

In belt sanders, Porter Cable, Bosch and Makita came first in best overall products with Ryobi 7th after several others. However, Ryobi did come out best on value for money.

In random orbit sanders, Festool came out as best overall with Metabo second. TTI's Ridgid products came out best value.

This really illustrates that no manufacturer has a best of breed or a best of value in every tool category. It also illustrates that volume manufacturing houses such as TTI have different product quality levels for their different brands. Milwaukee consistently did better than Ryobi, for example.

Reply to
Andy Hall

"Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that for Bosch, Makita, and all these quality manufacturers, does it, because.... oh, arr, erm.... oh, *BECAUSE!*" ;)

Reply to
Chris Bacon

FWIW, Bosch are made by Skil (Or vice versa?)

sponix

Reply to
sPoNiX

Bosch bought Skil in the mid 1990s. Nothing wrong with Skil stuff.

Reply to
Grunff

There are tons of rebadged products about. That does not mean that all rebadged products are neccasarily bad even if it is a marketing strategy that is often employed in the "pile em high sell em low" end of the market.

The basic quality of the starting product dictates the final item quality (although the "value" of the whole package can obviously be changed by what is added later in the chain). The cost base of the organisation doing the rebadging and where it chooses to position the product will dictate the final price - as David said the ex works purchase cost is only a small fraction of the consumer price.

David's description of the HPC did say "by DIY standards it was pretty good"... I am sure he could have also sourced the same unit as gets a power devil badge (and various others) and retails at 20 quid in the shops - I expect the description would be less favourable!

Reply to
John Rumm

It works exactly like that for them when they choose to offer a badged product. What differentiates them from (say) NuTool is the basic quality of raw product they are prepared accept and put their "brand" on, and also what value they choose to add as an organisation between delivery of the product from manufacturing and to the end user.

Reply to
John Rumm

On the contrary, much of Lidl's cheese, charcuterie and chocolate is better than more "prestigious" supermarkets.

And cheaper.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

The Skil drill my father bought was total pants but mind you so was the green Bosch one. Although that hasn't stopped me from buying Bosch stuff because I'm still happy with their other products.

Reply to
daddyfreddy

I wouldn't buy any of those things in any UK supermarket, prestigious or not.

I might buy certain French cheeses in certain French supermarkets, but that is a different proposition entirely.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Hi,

I wouldn't want to use top quality cutters on chipboard and MDF, as the glue blunts them much more quickly, so a free set of cheaper cutters would be quite welcome.

If finish is important a cheap blade with more teeth is another alternative. I've got a 48T in my circular saw, came with the saw plus another spare blade for £24 total ;) The other blade I'll use for MDF and rough work.

cheers, Pete.

Reply to
Pete C

To some extent I agree, and one can't put a fine finish on particle board anyway. MDF does lend itself better to machining.

I still prefer to buy consumables separately though.

That's reasonable depending on the mix of work, I agree.

Reply to
Andy Hall

I have held them and them walked away when seeing the price. They seemto be high craftsman tool.

And the price of the sacks can vary.

I bought some hand tools from Lidl which for 99p each are quite good. They will last a few years or more. I can't belive how cheap they were. I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

That is right. And as I said, high price doesn't always equal high quality or good value for money. I am still drawn towards Ryobi for the one battey set, and they do sell just the tool without the batteries. I want to start a one battery collection, maybe starting with Ryobi or DeWalt. You do say Ryobi come in tops on value for money, so that must say something. They are also geared for the professional user, while PP Ro is serious DIY. If they get through the guarantee period and break down they have been thrashed by me anyway. The time having the thing repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth. If I get 3 years from a =A360 to =A3100 power tool then I am happy as they have been used and abused in that time and paid their way.

Reply to
timegoesby

Certainly Festool's products are geared for the quality part of the market and where ergonomics of use are important to the user.

However, they also have a good track record on innovation.

Some examples:

- Guide tracks with adaptors for circular and jig saws and routers are available from most brand manufacturers and there are a number of after market products as well. Festool have done an integration on some tools whereby the cutting blade is precisely at the edge of the guide. Thus the guide can be easily located and self clamped to the work and the tool is easy and quick to use.

- The C12 drill is the first with a stepper motor. Control of motor speed and torque and the clutch are nothing short of superb.

- Their Systainer containers clip and stack together neatly. They will even clip to the top of their vacuum cleaner/extractor for convenience.

Exactly. The point is that this is a commodity product. As long as it is dry and in date, it will probably be OK. Then the only two questions are price and availability.

Tools are quite different.

There is certainly a commodity part of the market where price is the main factor with little regard to anything else.

THere are, however, demonstrably better products at higher levels and price points in the market, where people are looking for performance, features and services not offered at the commodity end.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the first place.

Not always. Their products came low down even on this in some categories. Hence the strategy of always buying one brand, doesn't really work if you want either best of breed or best value for money.

I think that it's typically reasonable within tool types. For example drills from Makita, but I don't think I'd buy a cordless circular saw from anybody apart from perhaps a small trimming one with small blade.

Actually that isn't quite true.

The manufacturers, Techtronics Industries, in China,

formatting link
position the Ryobi brand as follows:

"Ryobi is the brand of choice for millions of home improvement enthusiasts, woodworkers, craftspeople, and value-conscious contractors worldwide"

To me, the term "value concious contractor" is marketing euphemism for people for whom low price is more important than quality.

They talk about "pro-featured", not professional.

Their professional brand is Milwaukee:

"Today, the Milwaukee name stands for the highest quality, durable and reliable professional tools money can buy."

They talk about highest quality heavy duty tools for professional work.

If you compare the two brands side by side, the differences are obvious.

I am not sure what describes "serious DIY" - I don't see that relating to anything very much.

I remain to be convinced that TTI's private label stuff is any better than any other Chinese manufacturing house's private label stuff.

I'd rather spend a little more and have something that feels better in use, produces a better outcome and is less likely to break in the first place.

Reply to
Andy Hall

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.