Asbestos - Something to think about

In article , troubleinstore writes

Artex of a certain vintage does contain a small amount of asbestos but that sounds like a typical asbestos-expert overreaction.

Old Artex does indeed contain asbestos but is perfectly safe. The only potential hazard is if the ceiling is damaged or drilled and even then if you take care not to breathe the dust you'd be OK.

The insurance company are just covering their backsides, imho.

sPoNiX

Asbestos was put in Artex as late as July 1984 so we are talking about fairly new properties.

sPoNiX

If I had my insurance company round insisting that all the Artex was removed at their expense, I'd celebrate for a week.

Christian.

fair enough, the general best advice with asbestos is leave it alone... perfectly safe is maybe stretching things a little bit though.

This strikes me as increadibly bad advice to even remotely suggesting drilling into it. I'm just wondering how in hell you manage to avoid breathing in the dust? Anytime I've drilled any hole in the ceiling, my drill, my hand, arm and clothes are covered in dust, and there is a fair amount floating about the room too. We're not talking a wee paper mask to ensure that you don't breathe in the dust, its a full face jobby, but then you'll have to take that off to shower the dust out your hair etc. so you'd better make sure you've got on a disposable overall, with hood as well.

Given that very low levels of inhaled dust can cause a problem the only advice is leave it alone.

I would imagine that they are more likely to be following health and safety laws

cheers

David

So call your insurance company, ask to speak to an actuary and ask if they have heard of mesothelioma. Go from there.

Worth a call. Maybe...

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I should have rephrased it as "if I was still in my last house and I had my..."

My current house has no Artex at all. It just has lath and plaster ceilings with loads of cracks, instead. No chance of getting them to replace those with plasterboard, either!

Christian.

Yes, it's quite well known.

Artex contained white asbestos (chrysotile) until sometime in the

I'd have no house left !

The house I am in now had artex on all ceilings. Last October, I ripped the lounge ceiling down that was artexed. Got someone to chuck it on his van and take it to the tip. The artex was put on in 1983, before I moved in and I knew nothing about it containing asbestos. You live and learn.

-- troubleinstore

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Not really. The problem is that officially the governments position (one I suspect they now deeply regret adopting) is that there is no minimum safe limit for any form of asbestos. This is unlikely to be the case as asbestos is a natural substance and everyone in the country breathes quite a few particles a day. Moreover, in areas where there are large amounts of naturally occurring asbestos bearing rocks and a higher background exposure there is no increase in asbestos related diseases.

However the mechanism of damage is such that it is impossible to say that any exposure _is_ safe, even if the risk is minuscule. There is also no doubt that high exposure to blue and brown asbestos can be very damaging and sustained (many years) high exposure to Chrysotile can also be damaging.

From an insurers point of view the statement of "no minimum safe exposure" was a disaster (and it has put many out of business) but a free gift for avaricious lawyers as it makes any "mesothelioma" related illness case completely indefensible. In the USA at the moment some estimates put over 90% of the asbestos related illness claims as fraudulent.

Making life worse (for insurers) was the UK decision that in the case of asbestos related illness the claimant could claim against anyone who may have exposed them to any asbestos at any time in their life - they do not have to demonstrate where the damage occurred. So a railway worker who had years of high industrial exposure to asbestos with a now defunct boiler making firm could claim for the damage his employer had caused against anyone - including his house insurers - if he could show they had knowingly exposed him to asbestos at any time in his life no matter how minimal the period or exposure might have been.

It is the risk of litigation, not the risk of harm which is driving the insurers thinking.

There is no evidence that very low levels of chrysotile cement dust cause any more harm than cement dust alone.

That is the best advice - the worst thing you can do is remove it all as far more gets scattered about the place and the "specialist" asbestos scam companies are often not the most careful of workers despite their theatrical use of polythene sheeting.

Correct.

Going against current HSE advice actually - but it makes their position more easily defendable (we acted - we used an approved contractor) should it be necessary in years to come.

It's rare to see such sensible words.

Which, of course, means it's the way I think too ... :-)

Thanks, Peter.

Mary

My 1960's house has artexed ceilings and I have only disturbed them if absolutely necessary, and taken what I consider to be reasonable precautions. On one occasion I carefully bagged a small amount of waste and took it to the local dump where there is an asbestos products skip. As requested I sought permission before using the skip. The attendant let me use it, but had clearly never heard of artex containing asbestos. A sad reflection on the health and safety training the local authority provides for its staff.

James

My ceilings are textured. Bit like woodchip paper, in fact it may well be but how can I check if it is artex? It will have several layers of emulsion.

Any ideas?

If it is artex then do I - leave alone - panic - remove all the ceilings and replace - contact my insurance company as it was in place prior to my entry date

Artex is a very hard coating and usually put on with a very pronounced pattern. Running you hand over it is usually enough to feel the hardness.

Yes.

Optional.

If we were talking brown asbestos youd be right, but we're not. White asbestos is a different substance. There are 3 different substances all called asbestos, and theyre not the same.

White asbestos fibres are only a risk with very high levels of exposure. If you worked in a factory for years chopping up asbestos, coming out looking like a snowman, the risk is real. If you have a ceiling thats not crumbling, containing embedded fibres, its a complete non issue.

To expand further on the question around no safe lower limit... first it is thought that one fibre can cause mesothelioma. However, experience shows that IRL the number of fibres inhaled per case is positively googolic, thus the risk from a few dozen fibres when you drill a hole is absolutely tiny compared to the risk you take by going

Always put numbers to things, or this kind of madness starts occurring.

The flip side is house buyers are equally ignorant, so for sale value its a real plus to remove it (even though the risk from the stairs will be thousands of times higher.)

Regards, NT

Given that the OP says the ceiling has already been damaged are you saying that the HSE advice is to then leave it in that state? , or just paper over the problem and forget about it. While I've not read up on this I would have thought the position would be if its not been disturbed leave it alone, but once there is the slightest potential of increased exposure then the HSE would tend to err on the side of caution and advise removal. Givn the uncertainty over exposure limits and time takem for illness to show itself I guess they would have to cover their own arse as well. when advising on something like

cheers

David

Of course not.

If the damage is slight and that repair is cosmetically acceptable that might be perfectly reasonable. It's not really different from any ceiling repair.

Everyone breathes this stuff every single day.

The H&SE wouldn't be in the slightest bit interested although a good few empires there (and jobs after retirement) have been built on this substance.

If asked they probably would, for exactly the papered posterior reason you stated.

How easy it Artex to apply?