American toilet design?

[Jim Joyce]

I'm not a professional and I can generally correct skids regardless of whether the vehicle is FWD or RWD. My Dad taught me to drive when I was six. Between the ages of about 10-12, I used to sneak one of the family cars as often as I could during the winter months so that I could practice skidding around corners, driving on the frozen river, or driving on the frozen lake. Then from 12 to 18, I took the car with permission to do those things. As an adult, I continue to play in the snow and ice because I enjoy tossing a vehicle around and recovering safely. Where I grew up, in rural South Dakota, I was typical of the boys, slightly less so for the girls.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Total crap.

I had my first acciudent in a FWD car. Took my foot off in a corner and the rear stepped out. Wasnt professional enough to put my foot back down, so engaged in some tank slapping and then a bank slapping Fortunately my sister had smashed that side of the car some weeks earlier so me mum never noticed the extra damage.

These days RWD has traction control that limits big welly induced rear wheel slides.

Which is a shame sometimes

It is basically a question of practice. In the end I could drive both sorts on the limit. and finding the limit was one of the first jobs in a new car.

These days the limits are rather higher than I care to drive mostly. Leastwise on the sorts of cars I drive.

A tribute to modern car design.

[rbowman]

My current Toyota has a stability control system that can't be turned off. A couple of times when I wanted to play I wound up dead in the water with the car saying 'We can proceed when you can drive like an adult.' We even had SCCA sponsored races on ice, and in the summer there were miles of dirt road to get loose on.

The last time I lost it was in an old Geo with marginal tires when I hit ice on the Continental Divide. With a wheelbase of about 5' it did a 180 very fast. That wasn't the worse thing in the world though. While the back end was buried in a snow drift its front paws were still on dry pavement and I drove away.

[rbowman]

My first FWD car was an Audi. I didn't wreck but the first drives down twisty roads were a learning experience.

Yeah, it's FWD but between the traction control and stability control in my Toyota it's difficult to have any fun. It's interesting taking off on icy surfaces with the traction control dealing with the torque steer and slick spots. It's like riding a dirt bike. Don't obsess with the little weaves as long as you're going in a more or less straight line.

[Commander Kinsey]

Strange. In my experience, a FWD car begins to slide, and you simply do less of what you're already doing, and the problem is stopped before it gets serious. As in brake less or accelerate less. Same as if you're running or walking on ice and snow, you just be more gentle. But a RWD car requires great skill to control once it very quickly gets out of hand, you actually have to do more of what you did wrong to bring it back into line! I've felt almost all of my FWD cars lose control on a few occasions, and I simply backed off what I was doing, and it calmed down. But two RWD cars I had, first thing I knew I was facing the other way, no time to think!

That's the problem, RWD requires power to control it. FWD requires being calm. A non-pro prefers less welly.

You can normally disable it to have fun, you may need to Google it and reprogram the ECU. Put it in test mode or something :-)

Or you're becoming an OAP. If you're not using your car near the limit, you don't need a car that fancy.

[tony sayer]

Now thats the sort of really useful practice and experience that Learners just don't get these days!...

[Commander Kinsey]

I like to play around on tarmac, I can do a perfect J turn for example.

But snow, f*ck that. Gimme a FWD automatic any day, it sorts it for you. In fact I got my FWD auto Golf up a snowy hill that someone else failed to get their 4WD up. In the end they followed the tracks I'd made.

[rbowman]

I will admit my FWD Toyota does well in snow if it isn't too deep. I've had RWD cars that were good too, surprisingly a '62 Falcon Futura. It had Jeep DNA in it somehow. otoh, my '73 Mustang was absolute shit. It wasn't that stellar on dry pavement either.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Snow performance is more about the tyres than about the car.

[rbowman]

They all had snow tires. My current set is studded. 'All season' tires seldom made the cut in most areas where I've lived. Balance is important too. The Mustang had a big engine and was nose heavy. The Mustang originally was based on the Falcon platform but had went it's own way by '73. The '74 generation was a glorified Pinto. It took Ford until 2005 to make a decent version. Then they went Star Wars in Gen 6.

[Commander Kinsey]

And traction control or an auto gearbox really helps.

But the most important thing, the driving wheels should be underneath the weight of the engine. If you want a RWD car, put the engine in the back.

[rbowman]

I always wanted a 911... Too bad they have a reliability record somewhere south of a Yugo.

[Commander Kinsey]

I thought they were pretty good, being German. It's the Ferraris that keep on failing.

[rbowman]

2 out of 5 is pitiful considering my Toyota gets a 4.5 and a Golf is 4.

I had an Audi. Admittedly VW was still trying to figure out how to make a front engine FWD car but it sucked. My ex traded it for a Rabbit and got $300 for it. The Rabbit was an improvement. (The Mk 1 Golf was sold as a Rabbit in the US). VW mist be nostalgic. One of the GTI trim levels is the Rabbit Edition.

I'd actually went in to buy a Porsche 914 but I didn't find it very comfortable and went for the Audi. It had ergonomically designed seats that were comfortable for about a half hour but at least there was more room. I drove an AH Sprite for a few years and it was more comfortable than the Porsche.

I owned a Fiat Spyder for a couple of months. Mostly i drove a Mustang loaner while it was in the shop. Eventually I explained to the salesman that we would trade even for the Mustang or I'd park the damn Fiat in his office. I should have know, having worked on an Alfa once.

[Commander Kinsey]

I've owned several makes of car, and I'd have to say they are all equally unreliable. The major difference is the cost of new parts. For example:

VW Golf ABS sensor, £15 genuine, £7 fake. Honda CRV ABS sensor, £150 genuine, fake not available.