advice on problem low energy bulbs please

[John]

We had a rewire last year; in place of 50W halogen bulbs in the kitchen I replaced these fitted with 11 watt Megaman GU10 low energy light bulbs. These were said to have a life of 15,000 hours. As you may have guessed, they haven?t. Last week one was dead, the importer sent a replacement but said the batch was out of warrantee.

Yesterday another one went, and times its clear the problem exists with the rest. There is cracking from the contact pins and lose fragments can be seen in the bulbs which can be seen in the remaining ones.

As the rewiring was underway this and other building work made the house un-inhabitable, we were living in a caravan until September. Over time as we got the basic rooms habitable increasing the amount of time spent in the house.

So we think we would have been fully using the kitchen from August. This is a room with out direct natural lighting, so the lights are used when the roomis in use. To be honist given the delay in the bulbs in reaching full light, they are usually left on for quite long periods. Given time away, weekends and holidays, I think 13 months in use. If we left the lights on all the day, 7am to 11pm this is just under 6000 hrs. Indeed one halogen bulb was put back with a week, as the low energy bulb just wasn?t bright enough in one place, its still going strong!

I would be grateful for comments on:-

a.. Is such a short life the real life expectancy of such bulbs rather than the manufactures claims? b.. As the last one had a strong smell when taken out, is there a fire risk from these (one contact pin was lose! c.. In this length of time, if we had 6,000 hrs are we still saving money or we wasting? d.. How do the different manufactures rate the bulbs fin terms of replacing them if they fail (I can?t find any thing about Megaman having a batch rather than life warrantee) has any one else experience of this? e.. Can any one recommend a more reliable make of bulb?

I have contacted Megaman again but heard nothing back this time!

[Andy Hall]

That's a question for the manufacturer. Your retailer has the responsibility for recompense. Personally I wouldn't accept 13 months use against this life expectancy claim. If the investment is significant, ask for a refund.

Really, the whole technology is a waste of time and money. You would be far better off buying proper halogen lamps, getting decent light quality and not messing about.

The standard seems to be a rating down to 50% failure. This is worthless and should not be permitted. a 5-10% failure point would be more reasonable and convincing.

Megaman are supposed to be one of the better brands.

What a surprise. Redress is with the retailer.

[OG]

Take it up with the people who sold them to you. They were sold as having a

15,000 hour life, so that's what you should expect.

Send it to Megaman UK for their comment. You may have been sold a fake batch, or they may have had poor QC on a batch.

In a very simple comparison, in terms of electricity cost you'll have saved about £23 per buld (electricity costed at 10p/kw)

If you paid £7 - 8 per bulb you would be in profit by about £15 per bulb.

[John]

Thanks for reply's. Normally I would chase up retailer, but even just keeping the main receipts I have two filing boxes, not including the lamps! Which is why I went to Megaman. It would be interesting if the retailers try the batch argument as well! At least we didn't lose money, so its worth replacing the bulbs and making sure I keep the receipt this time but hopfully its it was a bad batch and not need it!

[Andy Hall]

If they do, it's a perfect reason to ask for a refund.

I am sure that this system relies on people not keeping a note of the operating hours, much like most people don't keep receipts for purchases in general anyway. As long as it seems better, that's probably enough.

You did, because the products didn't meet expectations.

You're buying more?

(Note to self - call broker and buy stock)

[meow2222]

You seem to be confusing mean life with individual bulb life. The

15,000 hr rating is mean life, ie average, so roughly 50% will be dead by then. Compare to GLS lamps at 1000 hrs or halogens at 1500-2000 hrs and you'll see a mean 15,000 is a significant benefit. I'm excluding 4000 hr halogens from that comparison as they are better avoided.

much less than with halogens. A smell equals a burnt component does not equal fire risk.

If they all dropped dead at 6,000 you're still saving money. As it is you should get more time out of them.

Batch testing, mean life is quoted.

That's down to them, given that there is no evidence other than your say so, and that what you've told us so far doesnt indicate any problem with the goods.

bulbs have neither. They are simply covered by the sale of good act, ie they must be as described. Which it sounds like they are.

CFLs differ to filaments in that there is a percentage of early failures. This doesnt change their mean life rating any.

Education is down to you. There is a wiki article explaining more about bulb life:

[Adam Aglionby]

6K hours isn`t bad going as other posters have pointed out.

Check that the fittings have some ventilation around them not smothered in rockwool for instance. Toasted ballst components can smell nasty, perhaps part of it is toasted thermal fuse.

6K hours of less than satisfactory light, has it saved you money. Have you considered other alternatives, lightpipes to obtain daylight, good quality fluro T8 ceiling fittings on ceiling and T5/LED below cupboards. Halogen just swiched on when you need it :-)

`Who`s calling......`

Its a lot to compact into a 50mm cylinder,Megaman generally thought of as being one of better specialist lamp makers. Plaster out the cutouts and fit some nice quality T8 surface fittings.

[Andrew May]

And you seem to confusing mean with median. A 15,000 hr mean life says nothing at all about what proportion will fail before that time. It depends on the distribution.

On the other hand a median of 15,000 hrs says precicely that 50% will fail before then.

Andrew

[manatbandq]

They have saved him money, see OGs calculation. How does that equate to losing money?

MBQ

[John]

The contributions on bulb life has apeared to have moved away from what the makers clams. They are NOT saying avrage, the information I found on the web site says the G10 bulbs "delivers breakthrough lighting performance and superior operating life expectancy of 15,000 hours" and with "With an operating life some 7.5 times longer than halogen".

Directly I have however been told warrantee is linked to when the bulbs are made,batch, and "our lamp life is calculated at the point when 50% of the lamps are extinguished, even though the other 50% of the lamps are still working well". So to claim 15,000 is to me a lille misleading.

But however they work it out, an actual life of 2 out of 5 bulbs being at best 6,000 hrs rather than the 15,000 climed is not very good. The remaining

3 all have notisable fragments showing in the lamp end its intresting how much more life they have. The lamps are in the adjustable Recessed ceiling lamp like With no insolation used, so there is plenty of venterlation. They have had "normal" use in good conditions.

[Adrian C]

OT, but have a look at Megaman's 7 minute factory video.

70% automation but the workers must sure be smoking some crack to remain interested in working there... or the food must be good ;-)

[Stuart Noble]

Lots of young girls and a decent canteen. Where do I apply?

[John]

Makes you wonder how they could fail to last there full life! Interesting to see how uniformly young the workers were in the film. Looked like the micro processor plant publicity at one time, until it emerged that so many were very badly effected from fumes and having there eyesight destroyed by the work that workers only lasted a few years there.

[meow2222]

I didnt really see it as relevant to the thread, but yes of course there is no certainty that half have failed at mean life. As a ballpark figure its good enough.

NT

[Stephen Dawson]

We had to change a load of megaman 11W GU10 pattern lamps for the 9W version, as the lamps failed prematurley. We also noted the supplier change the lamp in the fittings as well to 9W.

Rgds Steve

[OG]

To be honest he may not have saved as much money as I calculated. We're not sure he actually got 6000 hours use out of the bulbs, and he probably wouldn't have had Halogen GU10s on for the same 6000 hours if he had used them instead - he was only leaving the lights on so much because they take some time to get to full brightness.

As with many things, CFLs are suitable for some areas, but not for others. As efficient use of energy becomes more important we probably ought to be looking for more intelligent use of lighting, so that we use a combination of energy efficient space lighting (maybe at a lower level than we're currently used to, and effective task lighting (localised lighting for work surfaces etc). The existence of expensively floodlit living spaces becomes unjustifiable when we live in a world where profligate use of energy has significant long-term effects.

[robert]

Notice that on a Megaman Candelight the 15000 hours is specified as IEC60969 - maybe someone has access to a copy and can enlighten us (sorry!). Robert

[Si]

In message , OG writes

Are LEDs viable as kitchen downlighters yet? They seem to be available for around GBP15-18 with 12/19 white LEDs using around 1.2W. What would the colour be like? And the brightness?

[John]

We have LED's fitted in our caravan. They are also used in bed spot lights. They would not be usable in "normal" use yet. They are getting much brighter, but as yet the latter bulbs, using 48 led.s, are very directional and would need a lot of them for an area. The caravan lights are close together and are just usable, they have great advantages when power is from a battery charged by solar panels! I looked into using LED's for our kitchen and gave up due to the number hat would have had to be used!

The supplier I have used is

but there are an increasing number and the products available are changing fast!

[Andy Hall]

Oh dear.

Because the product didn't do what was claimed.

The total cost of ownership includes at least:

- purchase price of the bulbs

- cost of electricity

- cost of time to buy them originally

- cost of time to buy replacements

- fuel to go to store for above

- time taken to research and write letters of complaint

- time taken to follow up to get results

Most people think only of the first two, which is not correct. The remaining factors are typically far more than the first two and are directly related to how many interactions are required with the supplier. Assuming that one has done the correct calculation and included all of this, then there would be a loss in comparison wih what should have been.

Moreover, it would have probably been cheaper to have bought ten proper bulbs and ditched them when they fail because the cost is negligible anyway. As soon as a high capital cost of the product comes into play, inevitably people will look more closely at premature failure and may want to seek recompense. That takes time and therefore money to achieve.