A challenge for old house lovers

[IMM]

We see far, far more of it in masonry houses with fully skilled people.

Ever seen a SIP? Of couse you haven't.

None have come to the surface.

Two mutually exclusive points. The product with its technology and the installation (workmanship).

Same with any construction method.

That has nothing to do with the product and the technology behind it.

Same with any construction method. The Alaska failures were blantant negligence.

In know of whole areas thay were bulldozed.

Yep.

The point is the product, which seem to think is faulty by design. The product is sound, very sound.

You never, because you know little, if anything about SIPs. You make things up.

Where have you read that? Stop making things up.

I am not and I don't make things up.

Trained with low skills. Simple.

Not many at all.

Not so. Training is required of course, built no 5 year apprenticeships. If you knew how SIPs worked and were joined you would not say silly thing like that.

Not for me for everyone.

Tell me of all these horrendous problems? Please don't keep giving e.g's of shoddy workmanship.

That do just that. As do all independent test too. An the UK has a number of SIP companies manufacturing the panels, which was not the case 3 years ago.

Does pride mean some baked clay (bricks), light blocks and the rest Paramount boards? My oh my. The end result of SIPs is a house more solid and robust than bricks. The SIP houses in Kobe all survived the earthquakes with superficial damage while those around all fell down. You obviously know nothing of construction. That is sad.

[IMM]

Yep. Have a look at a building site. Those are those things with mud around them, you run from.

[IMM]

What is the first language of your third world?

[IMM]

It doesn't

If it is done right it is done right whether very high skill or very low skill. Get it?

Then none is successful then.

You are attempting to rubbish the system and not doing a good a job.

They are. they will be common in the UK very soon as many developers gear up for them. I saw a number of homes in Milton Keynes built of SIPs go up in days. Once the shell was up the tiles were put on the SIP roofs, and the rest was easily worked on. House were built in no time at all. Many SIP companies are sprouting up in preparation for the building boom.

As regards to structural integrity, huge chucks can be cut out of them. It is common to cut out your own doors and windows using a large jig saw.

As with all construction. Many companies have assessed that they can have more men checking a SIP house to ensure quality as they go up so quick. The amount of men that can say put up x houses in 6 months is still far less with SIPs even with more checkers.

You haven't as you don't know any.

You sucked it in, hook line and sinker.

Perfect? Superior, faster and cheaper, yes. Perfection is nearer the 100% with SIPs as walls are 100% true and most of the hard work is done in a factory under controlled conditions.

Stop guessing.

Shoddiness apart, what are these circumstances?

You don't know anything about SIPs, so how would you know the facts? Oh read tabloid blurb of shock , horror because of poor workmanship.

Only in workmanship, which mutually exclusive to the product.

It is simple to use, very simple. Follow the makers instructions that's all. If you don't you have problems, as with any product you assemble.

[IMM]

Wow another mentalist. Must be a a mentalist walking around with a name like Clive.

[IMM]

But wrong and can send you down the garden path.

[IMM]

Old enough to be bulldozed.

I would send the bulldozers in.

[IMM]

Appalling. Appalling, when you see what is available to resort to that crap is appalling.

My God more appallingness.

Even worse!!!!

[IMM]

You built one very badly.

[IMM]

Any figure to back this up? Or are you guessing again?

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Mike Mitchell writes

Mike,

If underpinning was done correctly, it will have been supervised by a structural engineer and a certificate of satisfaction, or similar, issued. You can ask to see it.

If it cant be found, or doesnt exist, you can get a structural engineer to inspect the property on your behalf. He may make some recommendations in various areas, and will/should comment on the existing underpinning, (make him aware of it). Armed with this, you can make a decision. I have bought houses that have been underpinned, that have needed underpinning, and that have looked like they might need underpinning. None have involved any big deal.

Damp is also generally not a big deal. Most surveyors will "find" some damp in any older house, and most of the "specialist" firms who inspect after the survey will confirm that a damp proof course is needed.

What you must remember is that these people generally dont find damp, they merely find an electrical resistance with their machines which suggests moisture. Where it comes from, and how, they generally have no idea, but as surveyors are able to satisfy the lenders, and their insurance companies, by recommending a specialist inspection, this is what they do.

Whether there is serious damp or not is usually a moot point. If you are going to walk away from a house with some damp, (or even knock them down to rebuild), you will probably be walking away from a lot of houses.

[IMM]

From Kingspan: The Insulation core and facings used in the manufacture of Kingspan TEK Structural Insulated Panels resist attack by mould and microbial growth and do not provide any food value to vermin.

[Andy Hall]

Carefully worded, but does not say that it can't happen.

Rats chew cables and all sorts of other things that don't provide food value.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[Andy Hall]

Clearly it does.

Do you imagine that these products self erect?

That simply doesn't correlate.

Either something is easy and can be done correctly by unskilled people or it can't. For a design to be foolproof, it shouldn't be possible to put it together incorrectly. Clearly in this case it is possible because people have done it.

That doesn't make the material bad, per sec, just the claim that it doesn't require some skill.

I didn't say that either. I simply pointed out that implementation is part of a successful technology.

I am not rubbishing anything. I am simply pointing out that it is subject to problems if not used or inspected properly.

You, on the other hand, are attempting to paint a rosy picture of something without any problems. I know that you have difficulty in seeing things other than in black and white, so can understand that you would have difficulty with the concept that things *can* have problems.

Really? I travel around a lot, and have yet to see more than one development and a couple of self build places using this.

Yet another reason not to live in Milton Keynes.

The question will then be whether people will buy these ticky-tacky houses or prefer traditional masonry.

I am sure that this needs to be properly planned out to ensure that sufficient support for the roof remains in place.

If there is then damage to the structure as the result of damp or vermin attack, this would be a question mark.

Thrown together in other words. Not very impressive for the single largest investment that most people will make.

We've covered that.....

I simply looked for information. It was in the form of a paper from an industry association and not hard to find.

Prefabs in other words.

We are only talking about OSB and foam here.

I don't think that the results are superior to masonry or traditional timber construction at all - just faster and perhaps cheaper.

Whether that remains the case over the lifetime of the house is another matter

Already discussed.

The article that I posted was from the industry association.

It wasn't a tabloid (I know you have difficulty with knowing the difference) and pointed out that there can be problems resulting from poor installation.

In this case the implications were quite serious.

Obviously. All that I have said is that the product and the installation have to be taken into account in terms of the outcome.

Fine. Clearly this wasn't done, and the results when unskilled labour was used were poor and the cost of rectification high.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

I know, like through solid blockwork too. The likelihood of vermin chewing through a SIP panel is no less than chewing through blockwork.

[Andy Hall]

That wouldn't be difficult - far more are built.

Of course I have. They are only foam and OSB, nothing magic.

Evidence?

They are not, because both aspects have to work to produce the final result.

Exactly. Nobody claims that for traditional masonry or timber construction that unskilled labour can be used.

With this, the manufacturers, (and you through blind cut and paste) are asserting that skill isn't required. This simply isn't true.

It does if the installation is not as straightforward as the makers claim.

It doesn't matter. The manufacturers are claiming that unskilled labour can be used and that the construction goes together easily. It doesn't, because it is possible to make errors.

If it were such that it *can't* be put together wrongly, then the unskilled labour claim would have some substance.

That explains it all.

It's only as sound as the end result.

A piece of cardboard is sound in and of itself. Is it suitable for house construction? In this climate, no.

There's nothing to make up. I simply quoted an industry association article to illustrate that this is not a technology without problems.

The "making up" is your blind belief that everything in the garden is rosy.

Have another look at the manufacturer web sites where you sourced your information in the first instance.

Look. Either they are idiot proof or they are not.

I've demonstrated that they are not.

The measure being?

.. and you would know?

It isn't difficult to put panels together. However, clearly it is possible to do so incorrectly.

I see. So according to you, people are going to flock after these ticky-tacky houses and the prices will rocket?

In your dreams.

That is the precise point. Poor workmanship can have horrendous outcomes. I would call the need to replace a roof a pretty horrendous outcome.

It doesn't alter the fact that installation is not as unskilled as they would like to imply.

For how long? We have a good idea of how long houses made from traditional materials and methods will last.

We don't live in an earthquake zone. Obviously one uses flexible materials where there is a risk of earthquake.

You obviously know nothing of the applicability of materials and construction to the location. .andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[Andy Hall]

That's normally your skillset.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[Andy Hall]

Yeah. Right.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

My God! The "technology" is not in the erection. That is like saying a bricklayers skills is "technology".

If you comprehend something so simple you get therapy.

They are not unskilled. They just don't need a 5 year apprenticeship.

Like IKEA furtiture?

As can be done with any construction method. SAIP panels just happen to be the easiest method to get a highly sound and thermally insulated self supporting highly rigid shell up.

Now one is making that claim, this is in your narrow mind.

The technology and the skills to implement are mutually excusive.

You are attempting to.

Nonsense. You came in with a tabloid headline attempting to pass off poor workmanship as in inherent problem of SIP design and the technology behind the panels, implying that all SIPs will go the same way.

There is no problem with SIPs as long as they are installed properly, then no problems. The advantages are colossal compared to other methods in construction (a quick weather tight shell) and the finished end product.

You are the one who blurbs tabloid headlines.

Not if installed correctly, which is an easy thing to do with SIPs.

Yep.

You do not go on construction site and know frig all about SIPS. Stop making things up.

The good people of Milton Keynes, this advanced lookahead city, would drive the likes of you out of town.

These houses are super solid and people are flocking to them. One last winter never even had its heating system on. The systems were put in just in case.

They have a table for this sort of thing.

A question mark one what? Vermin attack can happen to any construction material, less likely with SIPs are the foam is impregnated..

< snip babbling drivel from a Little Middle England mentalist who lacks comprehension >

[IMM]

Year right. Rats and mice chewing through blockwork and getting under the floorboards is common. They chew through the air vents, up they cavities and through the blockwork. Your knowledge of construction is lacking.