X10 Issues - Motion Sensor Transmission Range, Dimmer Question, GFCI

--------------------------------------------------------------------- I was also going to take exception about the equal cost statement. If you know where to look, you can get appliance and lamp modules and plug in filters for as low as $5. I use a lot of "doubled up" modules (piggybacked so that it takes two A1 ON commands to turn on a light so equipped) and that doubles the cost per control point. With X-10 it's still reasonable. With X-10, not so much.

Doubling up serves two purposes. I put a single fixture in a room on a single module, so that one press of A1 turns on enough light to move through the room. I put the rest of the fixtures on doubled up modules, so if I want more light in the room, I just press A1 on a second time and the piggyback modules all activate. It's a great way to save house/unit address "slots." Better still, the lights that are piggybacked rarely come up by themselves when the power blips. I probably wouldn't be able to do that with other protocols because the price per control point is so much higher.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it takes some tweaking and learning to get it to work seamlessly. The key pieces to my X-10 puzzle were Jeff's XTB and Wayne's WGL transceiver for X-10 RF. No amount of filters could compensate for the issues switch mode power supplies caused my system. With plaster and lath, I couldn't get X-10 RF to go from room to room with reliability. The XTB makes it all work.

The WGL unit is nice, but its output needs boosting to reach all corners of the house. I connected 4 antennas, a splitter combiner and an antenna amp to my WGL unit and I can turn on the house lights from nearly 250' when I am in the car, approaching home. I once tried installing multiple TM751's (X-10's stock RF unit) all over the house before I got the WGL. That's when I learned what X-10 collisions are and how low X-10's SAF could be! (0:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am tempted as well, especially because some new and interesting devices are starting to appear for Insteon systems (still nowhere near the variety of X-10 gear available). X-10 is cheap and robust. I still have a number of 20+ year old brown BSR and Sears modules that I bought in the early

80's - and a GE Homeminder control that you operated via your TV. Still working.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure you know what it means to say (about the XTB): "When you push the button, the light just goes on. Every time." For years, I would push the button and a) nothing would happen or worse, b) the wrong device would activate. For that, I bought I Monterey Protocol Analyzer for $300 because I was having so much trouble. (Jeff makes a much cheaper one, the XTBM, that surpasses the Monterey in a number of categories

The range of potential issues, particularly using stock X-10 gear, is the reason I warned DerbyDad to stick with a dedicated motion detector flood fixture. His application touched on some of the weakest links in the X-10 chain. However, the "thrill" of remote controlling things in the house is intoxicating. If he decides to stick with it, he's certainly smart enough to be able to make it work reliably. It does take some effort, and the prices for the XTB and WGL units are steep compared to other X-10 gear, but that's the trade off you get with it being so relatively inexpensive compared to other HA protocols. Jeff's units are all handbuilt and meticulously tested, so there's a very valid reason for the price.

-------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, yes. The sole source conundrum. Smarthome rushed their new line to market and had some serious issues with terrible light flicker. Apparently they had adopted the MicroSoft strategy of getting people to buy the beta version of their products and do field testing for them. Well, when Smarthome had to recall a whole bunch of gear (and they got sued, as well), the "let the customer pay to beta test" strategy turned out to be less than optimal.

A frequent contributor in Comp.Home.Automation, Bruce Robin, builds high-end houses in Hawaii and elsewhere. He installed Insteon in one of his new homes just before the XTB came out and he said that he would not have made the switch had he known how much the XTB improves X-10 reliability.

Unfortunately, so many people have had so many different startup problems with X-10 stock equipment that it's got the "toy" rap. With the right gear, it can do some incredibly powerful things. One thing that keeps it from going obsolete is the highly regulated and standardized 110VAC wiring in most homes. There will be X-10 gear humming away somewhere 30 years from now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It's hard not to get going about X-10. (-: Anyone with even a medium sized installation has had a love-hate relationship with it for years. I was just about to rip it all out (or get divorced) when the XTB came out. Saved me the cost of conversion and maybe even my marriage. Now *those* are some serious features.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
Loading thread data ...

Your statement about ACT is another reason I prefer X-10. If you want high quality gear, you can opt for it, but I find that now I have the XTB, the mass produced Chinese stuff is good for most applications. I imagine the changeover wasn't cheap. Do you recall how much it cost, or was it such a slow switchover you didn't notice. To Insteon's credit, they did make it easy to run both protocols so that you could switch over manually.

<
formatting link

I recall a lot of people having serious issues with the first control units that came out and IIRC, they abandoned one of their controller models in midstream, but I could easily be mistaken.

Insteon's big advantage (AFAIK) is that it's inherently two-way and that it can transmit a lot more data per second than X-10. That gets to be important when you have a lot of control traffic on the powerline. X-10 has collision problems, especially if you use a lot of X-10 motion sensors. They put so much traffic on the line that they frequently "step on" transmissions from other modules.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply to
Robert Green

Reply to
DerbyDad03

And ruin the fun? The PlusOne demon will put hair on your chest! It will cause you to utter swear words you didn't even know you knew!

This is probably one of the most important reasons I chose to use a standalone fixture. IIRC, it was $10 for the whole shebang and it included a sensor on a stalk that you could aim right at the walkway. The X-10 sensors tend to take in too much, no matter where you place them and the "stock" mounting arrangement is very limited (flat against the wall, basically).

I've been most successful with them in the bathroom and outside, positioned looking across the basement stairs from one side to another so that only a person walking right by would trigger it. Aiming it at a blank wall also reduces squirrel, bird and wind activation. Mount yours on a swivel joint (shouldn't be hard for a soapbox racer builder!) so you can point it just where you need it. Be prepared for it to miss sensing anything when the outside temps are in the 90's. Not enough difference between warm living bodies and the background, I guess.

If you're in a cold neck of the woods, use lithium AAA's to make sure they work below zero degrees. I have taken one or two of the hard to reach ones and soldered in "D" cell battery holders remotely located from the sensor. Another thing I dislike about the sensors is that when you change the batteries, you lose the settings. A remote battery pack allows me to clip in two AA's in a holder into the circuit to keep the memory settings alive while I change the D cells. For the sensors located high up, that's a real help. FWIW, I've had one unit running off 2 D cells for over 5 years. The sensors are pretty low-drain affairs.

Oh, what the hey. I'll spill. The X-10 motion sensors have, in addition to the PIR motion sensor, a cadmium sulfide (CDS) cell to detect light. When they sense that it's gotten dark, they will turn on the lamp that has a unit setting ONE higher than the code it is set to. If it's controlling lamp A1 then at dusk it will turn unit A2 ON and at dawn it will turn A2 OFF again.

You can't imagine how badly this has bewildered many new users of X-10. Even the really smart guys get taken in, and worse yet, those who think they've gotten around the problem by choosing unit code 16 (the highest allowed) find that the PlusOne demon "wraps" around and will use unit code 1 as the dawn/dusk unit.

Perhaps the worst case scenario is a situation where a PlusOne sensor is in range of another and the codes are set so that one sensor turns out the lights and the other sensor, thinking it's dusk, turns them back on. The potential for insanity is very, very high.

The light detection circuitry is actually quite handy when you know it's there and how to deal with. Most times, though, it's more trouble than help so I open the motion detectors, find the CDS cell (the silver can with the red squiggly lines on the glass top), and cover it in black shrink tubing to defeat PlusOne completely. Some people cut the leads, but the shrink tubing method is more easily reversible with a quick touch of an X-acto knife. Advanced users have created many "mods" that allow you to clip out the CDS sensor and replace it with other detectors for a wide range of purposes. I have about 40 of them because when I was acquiring X-10 gear, they always threw in a couple of "Hawkeyes" for free.

I've had some success in eliminating squirrel-caused activations by using strips of black masking tape on the smoked plastic "lens" of the motion sensor. Even so, I much prefer my $10 standalone motion detection fixture just to keep all the extra X-10 signals that come from detecting rabbits, squirrels, cats, dogs, birds, bats and passing cars from cluttering up the powerline. The X-10 motion sensors are perhaps the number one cause of lost transmissions due to collisions. X-10's error checking protocol is unfortunately not the best so when two valid commands appear on the line at the same time, they often create a third command that may or may not effect other modules in the house.

I discovered collisions when the motion controlled light in the bathroom would come on when you entered the room and then it would suddenly kick off at pretty much the worst possible moment. That had SUCH low SAF I pulled ALL the X-10 motion sensors from the first floor except for the bathroom one. Since I've started using the HomeVision controller, I've been able to set it up so that at night, the bathroom light comes on at 25% dim and goes out when no motion is detected for 16 minutes. There's still some arm waving on the can from time to time, but no more lights out in mid-stream!

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of X-10, Derby. Despite the horror stories, I can't imagine living without it and when I visit other people's homes, I feel like I am in the stone age. I used to be evangelical about pushing X-10, but now I've turned 180 degrees and mostly warn people off unless they are prepared to get deep into the details. It's not as easy as X-10 makes it seem, but it's also not as bad as its detractors would have you believe. Like many other things, it takes patience, learning and skill to master.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Good grief. What a total crock. The X10 motion sensor has to be programmed when you set it up. One of those settings is whether the dawn/dusk feature is turned on or off. Reading the directions and doing that was too much for you?

And even if it's left on, it would then activate only the any X10s that have a unit number one higher. So, just don't use that X10 unit number.

Reply to
trader4

Yes I did say nearby. Going back to your initial description of the application:

" My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up people walking straight towards it? "

From that description I took it that you are activating a typical front door light with a 75 or 100 watt bulb, intended to provide light as people get within 10 to 20 ft of the steps. The problem seemed to be that the motion light you had only activated when people were right at the actual porch steps. And such a porch light isn't going to do anything to provide light 40 ft down the sidewalk. You'd need a

150Watt flood aimed from the porch down the sidewalk, right into peoples eyes to provide light 40 ft out. Either that or a light located somewhere other than the front door.

So, I assumed you would be mounting the motion sensor facing across the walkway somewhere along the sidewalk, maybe 20 ft out, not necessarily close to the end of the 40 ft sidewalk.

From this part:

"BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible. "

I didn't pay close attention to the brick wall part or think of it's implications. Had I thought that part through, it probably would have dawned on me that it will indeed reduce the range of wireless compared to vinyl or wood walls. For that I appologize.

Are there any windows nearby? If you can get a path from motion detector to transceiver through a window instead of brick, or through the front door unless it's steel, that should make a big difference. Also, any chance of putting the transceiver in the attic near the front door?

For some people that's a feature, as now you have a click when the motion sensor on the front door is activated. But I agree, if you're sensitive to it then it can be a valid issue.

Have you actually tried it at all yet in the intended use at your Dad's house?

I mean this in the nicest way too. I'd suggest that in the future, if you don't know what is meant by any terms that are unclear, just ask. We are talking wireless here and with any wireless products there are distance limitations. When I get a chance I'll test mine and see how far the wireless range is.

Worse case you can just put the X10 stuff back on Ebay and resell it.

Reply to
trader4

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

This may not have been clear, but it's not as much an issue of lighting the pathway as much as it's lighting the stoop. Since the stoop is set back from the street as described in one of my other posts, the fixture next to the door is sufficient. Street lights handle the walkway, but for safety and convenience the steps and door need lighting.

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

I'll have to see about windows. as far as the attic, I don't think so. It's a crawl space attic and I seriously doubt there's an outlet in there. Beside, since my parents are in their 80's, I wouldn't want to have any of these components in a spot where they could access them if there were any problems.

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

Buried somewhere in the previous thread is the issue that Dad lives

300 miles away. That is why I bought enough components to install and test the set up at my house first.

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

Which I did when I didn't understand what you meant by "controller". However, the specs for the sensors said the range was 100' with no mention of walls being an issue. When you said "nearby" and "not too far", I had no reason to question what that meant. Instead of asking, I went and looked up the distance specs.

=3D=3D

=3D=3D

Agreed, which is why I went looking for the specs for the devices. Unfortunately, as I now know, the published specs are a load of crap.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

I'm sorry I don't have anywhere to point you. I believe HomeVision will do what you want via X-10, but realistically, new apps like Iphone control are likely to be supported most by newer technology like Insteon. Can't say for sure though, since I have not been really looking for Iphone control apps. There are a couple out there, but I don't know anyone who uses them personally, so I can't do more than list them:

formatting link
The above app requires an X10 CM15A device and a running PC to act as a server and only controls 15 devices throughout the house. A smart remote like the IconRF can control 256, so there's strong competition. I can understand wanting Iphone control since you've much more likely to have your phone in your pocket than your remote . . .

formatting link
Seems to be a better app, and has given me a great idea - they use actual pictures of the devices being controlled instead of generalized icons. I didn't realize how much easier that makes the system for non-geeks and I may have to steal, ahem, borrow their idea for my own setup. (-:

There's a close-up simulation here:

formatting link
and the developer's website talks about standalone controllers (namely the Smartlinc from Smarthome, the Insteon people). But it seems for now the only X-10 apps I could find require a webserver running on an old PC.

There's the interesting PixieLinc:

formatting link
that uses that $130 Smartlinc controller that works without having a PC on and acting as a server:

formatting link
Which seems to be a pretty capable unit, able to support X-10 and Insteon control. Here are some features (some apply only to Insteon and X-10 support seems to be waaaaay down the list which would make me worry about how good their X-10 support really is):

Status/Feedback Get confirmation that a device or scene has been activated.

Sunrise/Sunset Support for Timers Turn your lights on and off automatically based on local sunrise/sunset. Select city/state or latitude/longitude.

Enhanced Thermostat Status and Control A dedicated page for controlling and reading status on your INSTEON-compatible thermostat.

Start/Stop Dimming Select between incremental or start/stop dimming and brightening of lights. By enabling start/stop dimming, SmartLinc sends out a continuous Bright or Dim command when first pressed. Press a second time to stop when the lights get to a desired level.

Advanced Custom Control Power users rejoice. Now you can get down to the command code and modify commands. Some of the things you can do include at the device or scene level:

Copy a scene from one room to another room

Change Group ON to Group Fast On

Create an All On or All Off for all devices linked to SmartLinc without having to re-link devices

Incorporate X10 devices

Create On Off macros with delay

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------

Again, I have not used ANY of the above devices, so I can't endorse them one way or the other but it does seem that the Iphone is emerging as a popular interface for remote home control. I know that many people set up home control servers using Linux that serve up webpages that can be used by any device with a built-in browser to control. I've looked into various, similar setups and have yet to find one that appears to be as simple as the Smartlinc standalone device.

If I were in your shoes, I'd use an old laptop as a webserver (for power conservation reasons) and I would turn off all the power saving "sleep mode" stuff (they ought to call it "brain dead" mode because there are still hiccups in lots of apps and HW when you wake them up from sleep.)

The unit I use as an audio server use to continually lose its USB connections after waking up before I "jammed it open" so that none of the powersaving features kick in. They're there mostly to conserve battery power which is irrelevant when running off AC. At 17W total current draw for the whole setup, I am not willing to spend hours debug funky USB drivers to save a few more watts when I can just turn all the powersaving junk off.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

rgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs. receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches, Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However, the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2 units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On command.

What's up with that?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission

Sometimes when "on" works, but "off" doesn't, the cause is noise coming from the whatever device is being controlled. For example, florescent lights (regular or compact florescent) can create power line and/or RF noise that interferes. No noise when off, but once they turn on, they interfere thereby keeping the off from working.

Reply to
greenpjs

nsorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission

Thanks, but I'm using standard incandescent outdoor spots and a standard incandescent bulb in a fixture.

Everything has been working fine for the last week and continues to work now that I put the sensor back to where it's been all week.

I'm sure we'll agree that the placement of the sensor 1 foot to the right isn't going to introduce noise into either fixture, so I'm guessing noise isn't the issue here.

However, I'd like some clarification on your point for future reference.

When you say "thereby keeping the off from working" do mean that the RR501 will make it's audible Click but the lights won't go off or do mean that the RR501 won't even Click.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission

From experience you are fighting a loosing battle trying to make the toy store receiver work. If you want something that will pretty much work buy a better receiver. Once you install it you will wonder why you wasted and continue to waste time with the toy version because you may tinker and get it going and then there is tomorrow when it won't.

Reply to
George

MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission

It won't even click if the noise is RF noise that prevents the RF signal from getting to the receiver. If power line noise is involved, the receiver will click (if you are using unit code for the built-in applicance module), but the x-10 power line command sent by the RF receiver will get blocked before doing it's job.

If you are only using the RR501 as a receiver with built-in appliance module, then power line noise has nothing to do with it and the audible click means it is working.

Reply to
greenpjs

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2 switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does. Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up, I've got no need for it.

...Vent mode off...

Reply to
DerbyDad03

First, it definietly DOES give you a link to the proper page, which is:

formatting link

On that page: The specify the beam range as 20 ft at Normal incidence, less as you angle off that plane. Even shows best mountng location and height, so it activates the most reliably.

YOu're missing something someplace; check it again - scroll down to the image that has those details on them. 100 ft is for IR Tx range.

HTH,

Twayne`

Infrared is line of sight; move your module to nearer the sensor and then use the house wiring to get it to your controls, etc.. See Installation instructions.

As would be expected. Mine works perfectly - using 3 total R detectors.

I'd recommend you take these questions to the X10 forum where at least more than onr or two people are gong to know what you're talking about. You questions are all answered on the wiki or installation or product sheets.

No. Properly installed, they will dim to nothing. Somehow you have probably put them on the dmmer switch control (A4). You probably also have a switch ni the line that isn't X10; the switch shouldn't be used or should be an X10 switch.

Check with the forum; too much to explain.

Rip 'em out if you can't figure out how to use them and where best to get help with them, which is going to be X10.

Sorry; doesn't make sense to me.

Your real problem is not reading or not comprehending the installation and test sequences for these things, I think. I have a number of socket rockets, PIR sensors, modules for AV equipment, remote for AV equpment, and will be adding a couple more. This is because I am disabled and like to be able to hit "All OFF" without gong around to check that all the lights etc. are off. Got the shower room and bathroom left to put IR sensors in.

HTH,

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

=3D=3D

tp://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

That's the same link I posted below.

I must have missed it, so please show me where on

formatting link
has a link to
formatting link

I wasn't questi Transmission Range 100ft.

Does that not mean that the sensor can be placed up to 100 feet from the RR501? (We know that in reality it can't be, but isn't that what that specification is supposed to indicate? If not, what does the Transmission Range of 100ft mean?

See my question above.

Exactly what I'm doing.

Other have said they do not dim to zero. There are no other switches that control those lights other than the X10 switches. There are other switches for other lights on those circuits, since they are not dedicated circuits, but no other switches for those devices. Are you saying that you can't have another switched light on the same circuit that an X10 controlled light is on? I hope not.

1 - Spot light over garage door, on the garage circuit, controlled by a X10 3 way Master switch (WS477) in the living room and an X10 3 way Companion switch (CS277) in the garage. 2 - Entry light over the entry door, on a living room circuit, controlled by a X10 single switch (WS467) in the living room.

The WS477 and WS467 are in the same box in the living room, but are on different circuits.

All three switches are set to respond to a single RR501 that is plugged into the garage circuit.

A single MS16A speaks to the RR501 in the hope that both the garage door light and entry door light will come on when someone walks up the driveway.

I don't know if this enters into the situation at all, but the circuit for the single switch entry light is part of a multi-wire (Edison) circuit. It's interesting that this is the light that doesn't always come up when the RR501 fires. The spot over the garage, which is on the same circuit as the RR501, comes on 100% of the time when the MS16A signals the RR501. The entry light, on the multi-wire circuit, comes on about 75% of the time.

I have read the instructions, I have followed the test sequences. I have gotten proper operation of the system, probably 75% of the time. However, above and beyond all that, I have gotten confirmation from members of this group as well as other sources - including an engineer at a company developing a home automation hardware/software system - that X10 is quirky and that many, many things can cause it to act strangely.

I'm glad you have got a working system

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Reply to
Robert Green

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL unit in Home Toys back in 2008?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Derby, sorry to see you're having so much trouble. I also missed your earlier post, possibly because I was traveling. I agree that from what you described you are doing everything right. And what you're trying to do is exactly what the products were designed for. Some suggestions I can think of:

1 - Try putting the RR501 in a different outlet or on an outlet on another circuit. 2 - Try swapping the location of the 3way master and slave switch. 3 - As someone else suggested, try the X10 forum where there will be more people with experience that may be able to give you some suggestions.

Your question about the Edison circuit issue is interesting. It got me thinking about how X10 works just with standard service. For example, if I plug the transmitting device into a circuit on one hot leg of the 240V service and the receiver on the other hot leg, how does the signal get from one to the other? But, apparently it does. It would seem one way it would make it there is via any 240V load that was on or via an Edison circuit that was active. But failing that, I'm now scratching my head trying to figure out how it works in general.

With all the trouble you're having, I'm sorry for suggesting this as a solution. It's working for me with a motion sensor, an RR501, two single pole wall switches at locations far apart in a large house, a couple plug-in wall modules, and one of the timer/controller countertop widgets.

Reply to
trader4

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.