X10 Issues - Motion Sensor Transmission Range, Dimmer Question, GFCI

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to know?

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However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range is 100'.

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Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25', less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result. What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Reply to
DerbyDad03
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"Toys" being the optimum word

Reply to
RBM

Those receivers are pretty much a novelty item. I responded in your earlier thread that I experienced the same thing. I installed the extended range receiver or whatever it is called and it can hear the little key fob unit from 250' away.

See above.

Reply to
George

They stretch specs a bit, like a mile stretched. Im suprised it works at all with a gfi, I would not use it with a gfi. Internal wiring makes a big difference even a different socket in the same room can often fix an issue. Their stuf works "most" of the time, I would never want an x10 alarm system.

Reply to
ransley

[snip]

X10 is like that. Very useful in some situations. Very annoying in others.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

That's only partly true. X-10 gear has the "potential" to be the backbone of a highly reliably, very powerful (and best yet, surprisingly inexpensive) home automation system. Many people use it quite successfully. But not the way it comes from the factory.

Straight out of the box it's often a confusing, bedeviling, exasperating experience in: "WHY!!!?" Depending on what you bought, it can be: Why doesn't it work like they say? Why doesn't it work like I expect it to? Why doesn't it work at all? Or, the worst of all, why is it smoking like that?

With a little help, you can almost alway find a way to use it out of the box to turn on or off ONE problem light. X-10, however, scales badly and the more devices you add, the dicier things get for a number of different reasons, too detailed to go into here.

The X-10 concept is great. You can turn OFF or ON all the lights in the house or flash them. There's no faster way for the cops or EMS to find you when they're running down a street that to look for the house that's flashing all its lights. It's an attention getter.

Better still, it's cheap because the patent expired and it's managed to become a standard, with units built by many makers and robust price and feature competition.

But (and it's a Neicy Nash sized but) it was designed for the electrical "grid" found in the houses of 1970 when you might not find a single switch mode power supply outside of a laboratory. Now, every little battery charger made is a switch mode power supply.

X-10 RF was designed a little later, but essentially for the RF environment of those days and a lot has changed. They've always lied about their 100 ft range. Between two perfectly tuned devices, out in the middle of the ocean away from the radio noise of the big city -- maybe, but X-10 is mass-manufactured, not hand-tuned. The frequency match between devices is often quite poor and you can get RF failure in a plaster/lath house in as little as 10 feet. Hence the name X-10.

To make it a workable solution, as George has suggested, you need to "boost" the basic specs of X-10. I believe he's using the WGL All Housecode transceiver.

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Specifically:

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This unit has a far superior RF receiver, compared to stock X-10 gear, and most importantly allows for connection to an external antenna. X-10's designs, IIRC, use capacitance-coupled antennas and present a serious shock hazard if standard attempts are made to improve its (pitiful) range.

Stock X-10 may be enough for a lot of people, but to turn X-10 into a "when I push the button, I know the light will go out 99% of the time (or better)" then you also need Jeff Volp's product, the XTB-IIR.

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This is a repeating amplifier (among many other things) that takes the average 5V output of the X-10 signal over the powerline and boosts it up to around 25V. Hence the name XTB (X-10 Transmission Booster - true fact). No X-10 installation larger than "toy" or "one attic light on a pull chain" should be without it, but I'm guessing maybe half a million are. With all the cheap plug-in chargers in the world that leak RF onto the powerlines (or worse, block it AND the X-10 signal from propagating), it's only a matter of time before stock X-10 users begin experiencing intermittent "ghost" failures: those annoying, middle of the night activations that are so incredibly annoying and have very low SAF. Or it will come in the form of lights that just refuse to be controlled remotely. Or at all.

With the XTB gear, "I press the button and the light goes on." Anyone with a twitchy X-10 system knows what a serious endorsement that is. I can find fault with almost any product, but this one's only fault is that it needs to be installed in a box next to the main circuit panel and wired to each phase of the 240VAC service via a tandem breaker. For about 90% of the people here, though, that's probably not a problem. He's even got gear that can help without needing serious changes to the main circuit panel.

Disclaimer: No financial interest in either company, just a deliriously happy user of both. I figure they've saved me over $3,000 in not having to change over to a more expensive, more limited AND proprietary protocol like Insteon or Z-wave.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

X10 is 1970's technology literally, there are many other far superior powerline and RF based mesh network devices available these days. X10 is a toy. Smarthome Insteon or the Lutron devices are very reliable, especially the ones that are dual band, sending the commands simultaneously over RF and the powerline, and every device in these mesh networks becomes a repeater making it even more reliable. Not much cost difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for. I remember doing the X10 experiment board projects from Popular Electronics magazine around 1973 or so, it was impressive then, but by todays standard it is a toy. X10 signals are easily sucked off the powerline by the filters in all the electronic devices on the powerline in standby mode, TV's, receivers, UPS backups, computers, X10 has a hard time competing with those as they filter noise, including your X10 signal. Then you have the perpetual issue of bridging tthe signal to devices on the other phase without an amp, repeater or passive bridge.

Reply to
RickH

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the filament all the time. The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.

Reply to
RickH

.

My cfls blink when off with x10 modules but not the x 10 exterior motion lights that use a relay, [ I use 12 cfls outside on 3 motion sensors] can I use Insteon modules and mix them into an x10 set up for cfls. I just got an iphone and downloaded the Free Insteon app, the x10 app is 10 bucks. But X10 told me I need their remote controller to go through the computer, but I think from what I read the Insteon controller will run without a computer. I would like to upgrade my x10 stuff to run off my iphone without leaving my computer on, It goes into standby when im not using it. Do you have any suggestions on this, where can I read up on and learn about what you have posted about x10 and insteon. I like x10, ive had 3 exterior motion sensors communicating whith each other and interior control pads since maybe

1986, I like the stuff but its not 100% reliable. After reading what you said about Insteon, maybe I could integrate a few of their modules. The iphone idea as a controller is what I really like.
Reply to
ransley

Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years. It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. All that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless transceiver, and two wall switches.

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. Had I known Derby wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I doubt it is capable of those ranges. The initial application we were talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion detector. Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range. Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not too far away and with only one wall seperation. I do agree that they should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. But those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of wireless devices, let alone one that cost

Reply to
trader4

If I were doing anything more than simple or simply wanted it to work without tinkering I would just go with insteon. Some friends tried whole house automation with X-10 and it does take a huge amount of TLC.

That is it. I forgot what it was because I simply plugged it in and never had to look back because it works so well.

Reply to
George

For cfls, are apliance modules needed, do they have relays. Ive used the dimming feature with modules and switches and they dim to zero.

Reply to
ransley

Really? I have been using X10 since the 70's and have about 20 receivers on multiple house codes (various switches, modules, etc) and

5 transmitters (RF based as well as older controllers and computer interfaces). As others have said, I have done a lot of TLC to keep it all going. A few years ago, I invested in an XTB which worked wonders.

When new ads arrive from Smarthome, I think about converting to Insteon, but the cost is a major factor. X10 devices are still available in the $10 to $15 range while Insteon is usually $40 to $50. That strikes me as a lot of cost difference. (Although, converting the 1970's X10 module price to today's dollars yields prices greater than today's Insteon prices). I may yet convert one of these days, but with the XTB and a few filters in the system, the X10 system gets the job done. I might even consider spending the money to convert, but how to I know Insteon won't go away tomorrow? I took that risk with X10 in the 70's and it clearly hasn't been a problem! Will Insteon still be around in 40 years? I doubt it, but I would settle for a guarantee of 10 years.

Sorry for the rambling response. I started out to just disagree with your "not much of a cost difference" statement.

Reply to
greenpjs

Yes, it does.

That's why I tried Insteon. It was worse. Much worse than not working at all. It was extremely erratic. I returned the stuff to where I ordered it (Smarthome). That's been a couple of years, and they still owe me $90 for returned stuff they didn't credit.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

True, although I had much more trouble with Insteon. It never worked acceptably for more than 5 minutes (with NO MORE than one module and controller).

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

I have some of those devices. They use a neutral AND pass a current through the load when off. This is true even for the modules without "local control".

Reply to
Mark Lloyd
[snip]

And a bypass for current when off. Check the schematics.

It's not actually zero current. It seems the differences between different CFLs affect whether or not there's any visible light produced.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

=3D=3D

trader4,

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, since I really appreciate the help you given me so far.

I guess I should have paid more attention to your statement:

"The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small module that you plug in to any *nearby* AC outlet in the house."

Apparently the word "nearby" held more of a literal meaning than I realized!

Based on the distance I described in my OP (30' - 40') I doubt I'll be able to mount the sensor in a location that will cover the walkway and also be "nearby" an AC outlet, especially considering that there's a brick wall then plaster/lath wall to consider.

I'm having trouble getting through vinyl siding and an unfinished garage wall from more than 10' - 15'

In addition, the nearest outlet is in the living room room which would mean that the considerable "click" the RR501 makes will be an annoyance. I was hoping to be able to place the RR501 in the basement based on the 100' spec I found at the X10-Wiki site.

I'll have to play around next time I go to Dad's and see if I can find suitable locations for both units.

I'll keep testing the GFCI issue. Now that I think I'm a little clearer on the range issue, I can eliminate some of the variables and just see if the GFCI(s) really make a difference.

Not a big issue at all. I didn't realize when I posted that a quick tap of the push button turned the light on or off at it's current setting. I can't imagine why I'd ever dim the lights to zero.

...within it's limitations, of course ;-)

Thanks again.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

You are comparing the China X10 prices. I avoid the China X10 stuff and used the ACT models made in Indiana, they cost more but are better. But I weened everything off X10 to Insteon with a computerless 24/7 ISY controller:

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Reply to
RickH

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