Wiring dilema

[volts500]

Yes, that is the case in some states, but the installation still needs to meet code. If a contractor wires it, the insurance co. can go after the contractor if something happens..........if a homeowner does it and decides to throw local code to the wind, he just doesn't collect if something happens (and the insurance co. can prove it)........just hope it doesn't end up as a wrongful death............like the guy in Connecticut some years ago.......wired a baseboard heater in a basement......broke _19_ codes rules......4 year old child killed in the fire.......guy got convicted of manslaughter. Sorry, don't have the reference, but I'm sure that it's not hard to find......I just remember reading about it.

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

Allow me to clarify my previous statements. If you are allowed to wire your own home, by law, it is not an illegal act and couldn't *necessarily* be ground for the insurance company to refuse coverage of your loss.

Now they (the insurer) may want to "walk away, they couldn't claim you did the work illegally. Just because the electrical inspector okays the work done doesn't mean it fully complies with NEC, yet you don't see electrical inspectors being carted of to jail nor are the sued by insurance companies for losses.

Op --legal issues can be awfully ambiguous at times--

[Trent©]

The judge's OPINION is absurd.

This should have been appealed.

If I'm driving my car...and I break the law by running a red light...you mean to tell me my insurance company doesn't have to pay if I have an accident?

DIY repairs and installations are done every day. Just because there may be some minor violation of the law doesn't void an insurance policy's coverage. Nor does a DIY repair necessarily make it inferior to a licensed contractor's work.

There's only a few instances where an insurance company doesn't have to pay...aside from the items that are SPECIFICALLY outlined in the policy. Fraud, etc. are some of those.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.

[Trent©]

What have YOU personally experienced? I hear fish stories all the time.

I doubt if there's a house in the country...or the world...that doesn't have a DIY repair done to it.

Insurance companies must pay except under extremely unusual circumstances. Different types/level of fraud would fall under this category.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.

[Thomas D. Horne]

I never said that it is illegal for a homeowner to do their own wiring. But in areas that require permits and inspection by law it is illegal for the home owner to wire anything in their home without a permit and subsequent inspection. If you do the wiring in violation of the law requiring a permit and that wiring causes a loss your insurance will not cover that loss. There is a very low likelihood of the insurance carrier discovering the cause but if they do they can and have walked away from the loss. If someone is injured in the fire it is investigated much more carefully. If that someone is a victim of obvious and damnable carelessness the investigators will be at pains to inform the insurance carrier of your role in the cause of the fire.

-- Tom

[Banister Stairwell]

Fish story??

Trent, you asked me a question and I answered it. I wasn't "speculating" when I posted what happened to my partner. But, if you want to suggest that because it didn't happen to me personally that it makes my advise to the OP invalid, then that's entirely up to you.

[Banister Stairwell]

Thanks, Tom. This is the very point I've been trying to make.

[Oscar_lives]

Where do you live, Tommy? In the Magic Kingdom?

[TURTLE]

This is urtle.

we are talking about a homeowner wiring his own home and not calling the city inspector, not following nec code, and work was done without any inspection at all as city codes require. The insurance company can get away with not paying if it is determined that the homeowner did not follow city and state nec codes. If you wire the house with very / grossly/ bad ly / done. The insurance company will want to know what contractor did the work and his contractor liability will have to pay for the fire. now if it is the homeowner that did the bad job. they will pay for the house to be replaced but then turn around and sue the homeowner to get the money back. You can't collect for the new home with pending sueing going on in the matter. The insurance company is going to win.

now you spoke about if i run a red lite and the insurance does not have to pay. that would be a accident or chance happening. this would be called a accident and not call a knowing before hand crime. If you was found in court that you run the red lite on purpose and knew to stop but just run it because you wanted to see cars crash. they will not pay for you but will pay for the others. A case like this is like you drive your car off in the river and the insurance found out that you did it on purpose and knew that you was doing it and could have stop driving in there anytime you wanted to. they will not pay.

The insurance company are getting smarter everyday.

TURTLE

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Tom again here, If a home owner wires his house and does not file with the city as to be inspected and be done to local and state codes. The home owner is the electrical contractor which is himself and the blame falls on the [electrical contractor / Homeowner now] and his Contractor Liability insurance will have to pay for the screw up and home owner usely don't carry Contractor Liability. If the home owner does not follow the codes and does it. The fault will fall on the installer / electrical contractor / now homeowner. A home owner can not be held responsiable even if he sets fire to his own house with gas and a match. it is OK for him to do as he pleases , but if he applies for insurance to pay for it. he is commiting a crime of fraud to collect insurance. If he wires his house wrong and proved he was wrong in wiring it. he can burn his house down and will not have a word said to him, for it is his home. Now if he applies for insurance to pay for it. he is committing insurance fraud.

The reason I'm speaking on this is State farm insurace compay was involved with a freieds house that burned to the ground. the contractor that did the job was found to be wrong in wiring that he did. The insurance company paid for the home but sued the contractor and got the cost of the house from his Contractor liability insurance. I and my friend spoke to the insurance adjuster about the fault and if the home owner would be found to have wired the home wrong and knew he was wrong like no inspection, or following city and nec code. He said we will not pay a dime for you need to go back to the wire mans insurance company for payment. Now it is a crime to not get a permit to wire a house inside city limits where there is codes to follow and it being the home owner doing the work. When wiring a house by the home owner he like the Electrican has to get a permit and follow the codes just like the electrican contractor. It is nothing wrong with wiring it wrong but if you want insurace to pay for a crime. they will tell you. The wireman / Electrican / Homeowner has or suppose to have contractors liability for not following the codes. If your brother in law wired it. They will pay for the house but sue your brother in law for the cost of the house.

Tom there is a NEC code out there somewhere that you lack the knownledge of knowing it. Yes , Tom I've been in court on matter like this before and it being from wiring of a gas furnace to a fire caused by too small of wire to a pump house. The wire went over the top of my condenser and was not my doing but it burnt off and fell down on the condenser area and set fire to the side of the house. The electrical contyractor run the wire and did not follow the code in doing so. he elevtrican's contractor liability had to pay for the house. they had me involved because the electrican run a wire over the top of my equipment and fell down and hit my equipment and started the fire. I installed the hvac equipment but not any of the wiring that failed. The insurace company has to name everybody to be sure they get the right one. The electrican run all the electric service and wires even to my equipment.

Please Tom know what your talking about before you go to judging and deciding laws and what insurance companys can and can't do.

TURTLE

[CBHvac]

Wrong..wrong...wrong...

But...like you care...

Thank god you live up north..and not near us..

[Trent©]

With all due respect...SURE you were. If it didn't happen to you personally, you probably have no idea of all the little details that may have entered into the situation.

I didn't mean to suggest that what you told us is not true. I just mean to suggest that yer simply conveying information to us...to the best of your knowledge.

I have seen nothing to suggest that you are not a helpful and trustful person.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.

[Banister Stairwell]

Boy, that's a new one on me. My best guess about why the outside of her house is electrified is that the normal path to ground has been broken or at least compromised in some way. I wonder if a disconnected neutral wire somewhere would cause this? Perhaps our resident professional electrician, Thomas D. Horne will graciously jump in here and help us figure this one out.

Hey, Tom... Have you run across a situation like this before? I'm sure Trent would like to know the answer to this one, but I'm curious as well.

[Trent©]

Actually...I'm not really that curious. lol

I know that the prior owner told me he was having problems with the electricity in the front of the house...just before he sold it. The porch light...a motion detector type, metal, mounted on aluminum siding...quit working. And he said he had no electricity to the duplexes on that front wall on the inside.

Then, about 3 weeks ago, the new owner had the light working again. When I told her the whole story about her house...and about the zap I got...she said all she did was put a new bulb in the light. She said she had gotten a slight zap a couple of times, too...standing in her bare feet on the carpet in the living room and reaching to the mailbox. She asked a friend about it...and the friend said it was probably coming from the doorbell switch. So she disconnected the doorbell. lol

I keep thinking about all the times the mail got delivered...in the rain. No doubt, its the shoes that made the difference. I walked over in my bare feet...on concrete...lots of humidity and rain lately. What really surprised me is that the aluminum storm door has current going thru it, too.

Ya never know about life. That kinda spoiled my whole day! lol

Have a nice week...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.

[Banister Stairwell]

Being curious, I posted this to an electrician's forum. The response was that the wiring for one of the branch circuits (most likely serving the porch light) has been cut and shorted to the siding, or a nail has been driven into the wiring and is shorting to the siding.

She really needs to get it fixed.

[Tom Pendergast]

...or whoever wired the porch light put the hot on the outer conductor of the lamp socket instead og the inner tip. She's getting some (un)healthy leakage to ground, probably through a painted surface on the light fixture that's semi-conductive. Not enough to cause an overcurrent situation and blow the breaker, but enough to buzz the surrounding sufraces with some big time leakage.

Indeed.

[Guyz-N-Flyz]

Very doubtful! It is more than likely that it the nail in the wire, as suggested by the banister's query. If a nail has been driven through the hot wire it wouldn't short out, unless they grounded the siding. A bare foot person touchin' the siding becomes the ground, in this case, albeit a weak (and hopefully brief) ground.

Op

[Trent©]

Which brings up another good question...

Do outside porch LIGHT circuits need to be on a GFCI?

I'm sure this kind of thing is rare...but wouldn't a GFCI breaker prevent this from happening?

Have a nice week...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.