Very doubtful! It is more than likely that it the nail in the wire, as
suggested by the banister's query. If a nail has been driven through the
hot wire it wouldn't short out, unless they grounded the siding. A bare
foot person touchin' the siding becomes the ground, in this case, albeit a
weak (and hopefully brief) ground.
Which brings up another good question...
Do outside porch LIGHT circuits need to be on a GFCI?
I'm sure this kind of thing is rare...but wouldn't a GFCI breaker
prevent this from happening?
Have a nice week...
Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or
I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which
then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the
issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for
even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer
must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."
I don't know that what you are saying applies in every state. In NC, in
many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are
restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I
rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the county
electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.
What I'm saying does apply to every state. You obtained a permit. You
passed electrical inspection. The original premise is that if your
illegally installed electric work causes a loss your insurance company
can walk away. Nothing about your situation indicates that this is not
Allow me to clarify my previous statements. If you are allowed to wire your
own home, by law, it is not an illegal act and couldn't *necessarily* be
ground for the insurance company to refuse coverage of your loss.
Now they (the insurer) may want to "walk away, they couldn't claim you did
the work illegally. Just because the electrical inspector okays the work
done doesn't mean it fully complies with NEC, yet you don't see electrical
inspectors being carted of to jail nor are the sued by insurance companies
Op --legal issues can be awfully ambiguous at times--
Yes, that is the case in some states, but the installation still needs to
meet code. If a contractor wires it, the insurance co. can go after the
contractor if something happens..........if a homeowner does it and decides
to throw local code to the wind, he just doesn't collect if something
happens (and the insurance co. can prove it)........just hope it doesn't end
up as a wrongful death............like the guy in Connecticut some years
ago.......wired a baseboard heater in a basement......broke _19_ codes
rules......4 year old child killed in the fire.......guy got convicted of
manslaughter. Sorry, don't have the reference, but I'm sure that it's not
hard to find......I just remember reading about it.
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:13:07 -0400, "Thomas D. Horne"
The judge's OPINION is absurd.
This should have been appealed.
If I'm driving my car...and I break the law by running a red
light...you mean to tell me my insurance company doesn't have to pay
if I have an accident?
DIY repairs and installations are done every day. Just because there
may be some minor violation of the law doesn't void an insurance
policy's coverage. Nor does a DIY repair necessarily make it inferior
to a licensed contractor's work.
There's only a few instances where an insurance company doesn't have
to pay...aside from the items that are SPECIFICALLY outlined in the
policy. Fraud, etc. are some of those.
Have a nice week...
Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or
This is urtle.
we are talking about a homeowner wiring his own home and not calling the
city inspector, not following nec code, and work was done without any
inspection at all as city codes require. The insurance company can get away
with not paying if it is determined that the homeowner did not follow city
and state nec codes. If you wire the house with very / grossly/ bad ly /
done. The insurance company will want to know what contractor did the work
and his contractor liability will have to pay for the fire. now if it is the
homeowner that did the bad job. they will pay for the house to be replaced
but then turn around and sue the homeowner to get the money back. You can't
collect for the new home with pending sueing going on in the matter. The
insurance company is going to win.
now you spoke about if i run a red lite and the insurance does not have to
pay. that would be a accident or chance happening. this would be called a
accident and not call a knowing before hand crime. If you was found in court
that you run the red lite on purpose and knew to stop but just run it
because you wanted to see cars crash. they will not pay for you but will pay
for the others. A case like this is like you drive your car off in the river
and the insurance found out that you did it on purpose and knew that you was
doing it and could have stop driving in there anytime you wanted to. they
will not pay.
The insurance company are getting smarter everyday.
I never said that it is illegal for a homeowner to do their own wiring.
But in areas that require permits and inspection by law it is illegal
for the home owner to wire anything in their home without a permit and
subsequent inspection. If you do the wiring in violation of the law
requiring a permit and that wiring causes a loss your insurance will not
cover that loss. There is a very low likelihood of the insurance
carrier discovering the cause but if they do they can and have walked
away from the loss. If someone is injured in the fire it is
investigated much more carefully. If that someone is a victim of
obvious and damnable carelessness the investigators will be at pains to
inform the insurance carrier of your role in the cause of the fire.
This is Turtle.
Tom again here, If a home owner wires his house and does not file with the
city as to be inspected and be done to local and state codes. The home owner
is the electrical contractor which is himself and the blame falls on the
[electrical contractor / Homeowner now] and his Contractor Liability
insurance will have to pay for the screw up and home owner usely don't carry
Contractor Liability. If the home owner does not follow the codes and does
it. The fault will fall on the installer / electrical contractor / now
homeowner. A home owner can not be held responsiable even if he sets fire to
his own house with gas and a match. it is OK for him to do as he pleases ,
but if he applies for insurance to pay for it. he is commiting a crime of
fraud to collect insurance. If he wires his house wrong and proved he was
wrong in wiring it. he can burn his house down and will not have a word said
to him, for it is his home. Now if he applies for insurance to pay for it.
he is committing insurance fraud.
The reason I'm speaking on this is State farm insurace compay was involved
with a freieds house that burned to the ground. the contractor that did the
job was found to be wrong in wiring that he did. The insurance company paid
for the home but sued the contractor and got the cost of the house from his
Contractor liability insurance. I and my friend spoke to the insurance
adjuster about the fault and if the home owner would be found to have wired
the home wrong and knew he was wrong like no inspection, or following city
and nec code. He said we will not pay a dime for you need to go back to the
wire mans insurance company for payment. Now it is a crime to not get a
permit to wire a house inside city limits where there is codes to follow and
it being the home owner doing the work. When wiring a house by the home
owner he like the Electrican has to get a permit and follow the codes just
like the electrican contractor. It is nothing wrong with wiring it wrong but
if you want insurace to pay for a crime. they will tell you. The wireman /
Electrican / Homeowner has or suppose to have contractors liability for not
following the codes. If your brother in law wired it. They will pay for the
house but sue your brother in law for the cost of the house.
Tom there is a NEC code out there somewhere that you lack the knownledge of
knowing it. Yes , Tom I've been in court on matter like this before and it
being from wiring of a gas furnace to a fire caused by too small of wire to
a pump house. The wire went over the top of my condenser and was not my
doing but it burnt off and fell down on the condenser area and set fire to
the side of the house. The electrical contyractor run the wire and did not
follow the code in doing so. he elevtrican's contractor liability had to pay
for the house. they had me involved because the electrican run a wire over
the top of my equipment and fell down and hit my equipment and started the
fire. I installed the hvac equipment but not any of the wiring that failed.
The insurace company has to name everybody to be sure they get the right
one. The electrican run all the electric service and wires even to my
Please Tom know what your talking about before you go to judging and
deciding laws and what insurance companys can and can't do.
No. Are your recessed lights the type where you can replace the bulb
with compact fluorescents? You could save a lot of money if you really
are running 15 amps just for lighting. You could easily be chewing up
150 kwh a month or more just on that one circuit.
Are these cannisters? That's the only lighting style I can imagine that
approaches anywhere near that level of inefficiency. Your 15 amp breaker
is only rated for 12 amps continuous, so you need to stay under 57.6
average watts per fixture. You could do that with a mix of 40 and 60
watt incandescents, or just install 23 watt compact fluorescents, which
provide as much light as 100 watt incandescents and would drop the
circuit to a 4.7 amp draw.
In alt.home.repair on Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:51:03 -0400 "Alexander
It's important to be concerned about the expected load, but one should
also think about the unexpected load. For example maybe there will be
a total short circuit. Even though 14 gauge wire is only rated for 15
amp, I'm sure it can carry more than 20 amps for a few seconds in case
of a total short, and the 20 amp circuit breaker will blow.
Besides the situation described by someone where a later person
increases the load, the theoretical problem now would be that there
was some partial short circuit, whatever that would be, that allowed
ore than 15 amps to flow, but fewer than 20. The breaker would not
trip, but the wire would in theory be hot enough to start a fire.
(well, not if it were 16 amps. It would just be a little hotter than
at 15. I don't know when it gets hot enough to make a fire. Although
I have phone lines in the house that sometimes work fine and sometimes
give a big hum and don't work. There's no telling what can happen.
If you can't change the wires, can you put a 15 amp circuit breaker in
that circuit only. Is there any way to do this without a circuit
breaker box? I don't know. What about a light bulb socket, or a
screw-in fuse socket, rated for more than 15 amps that has instead a
15 amp fuse. Presumably it will never blow, so one box of 4 will last
you forever. If it does blow more than once, you'll decide what to do
then. Is such a fuse within code. If there are no exposed metal
parts it certainly seems safe enough. If not there must be
minicircuit breaker boxes. Or bring the 14 guage wire back to the
main fuse box and do it there. (All wire nuts must be within a
junction box, I beleive. (What about soldered wires?)
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
Code, for the most part, has been written in response to fires etc. It
is there to, as much as possible, to prevent death and damage, from the
unexpected. Anytime it is ignored opens the door for serious problems.
It would not be immediatly dangerous because you're not overloading the #14
wire, but code says you can't overfuse wire, so do it right by doing
either one of the following...
1) Find a miracle way to replace the #14 wire with #12. (best)
2) Install 15A breaker instead of 20A one.
25 65w flood lamps total 13.75A. Replace the ones that or ON at least three
hours continous per day with fluorescent ones to drop the amperage total
below 12A, and it should not be a problem on a 15A breaker. Problem solved.
Other things that will drop the amperage: dimmers and the fact all of the
lights won't be ON all at the same time.
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