Windows -- why vinyl?

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is: Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better? Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Reply to
John Albert
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John Albert wrote in news:4faa7bc0$0$2733$ snipped-for-privacy@newsreader.readnews.com:

vinyl does not conduct heat as well as aluminum,so vinyl window frames will have a higher R rating.

maybe lighter,too,so easier to raise and lower.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

-snip-

If you lived in the northeast you could pay for a new set of windows of almost any description in a few years.

There are vinyl *replacement* windows and vinyl windows for 'new construction'. I don't like the looks of the replacement style and have finally finished replacing all the windows in my 100 yr old house over the past 25 years. All were 'new construction' windows. More work, but a lot more flexible. Only 4-5 windows are anywhere near the size of original windows.

For replacement windows, I think *cheap* is the goal.

Probably not, but depending on where you live, they might pay for themselves in a couple years and be 'making you money' after that.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

On 5/9/2012 9:14 AM, John Albert wrote: ...

Very good...

Because they're cheaper and what most all the guys who do siding, etc., stock.

The do indeed, and many are. There are a (very) few that are actually pretty good, but even they look like vinyl and completely out of place on a vintage home.

B.

...

Surely doubt it; many ads I see on TV are for replacing replacement windows that haven't been there 25 yet, what more 100.

I'd seriously consider whether the existing windows _really_ need replaced or simply repaired and perhaps refitted. This house is about the same age (a couple years later) and when the folks retrofitted it in the late 70s/early 80s replaced the old window weights w/ new sliding self-raising tracks and refit the original windows w/ upper sash leaded glass) and added modern storms for the energy savings.

Retains the character of the house _much_ better than throwing a plastic window into a vintage building where it just looks cheap (irregardless of how expensive it may be in reality).

I've been looking to redo an entry way that was originally just an add-on porch and found that Pella can make new double glass hi-e windows w/ all the modern features (tilt in clean, etc.) and still have genuine leaded upper sashes to match the originals.

Not cheap, but surprisingly not _that_ much of a premium over the standard...I don't have the datasheet at hand; I'll look up the series and post later.

OBTW, the other hangup w/ the vinyl replacements is probably the trim, both interior and exterior. Chances are you've got wide treatments and perhaps even what would go for custom handwork in these days of minimize any labor that you'll lose as well.

All in all, think carefully about this; aesthetics are important, too.

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Reply to
dpb

On 5/9/2012 10:06 AM, Jim Yanik wrote: ...

Not necessarily; there's a thermal break on an Al clad window; it'll depend on the particular windows compared as to who wins.

They'll have the load matched to the weight just as any other window...

Reply to
dpb

Speaking of cheap. I was able to take some of the expense directly off my taxes. I remember I would have been screwed that year if I hadn't bought those windows.

Now I think it's only $500.

Reply to
gonjah

windows/siding as well.

They do have fiberglass models. Also, the aluminum separators in some glass, use steel instead, for better thermal break. I have gone through lesser quality model vinyl's to better ones, and the price differential was not that much. Some installers use more expensive brands, but I don't know if they are worth it.

Greg

Reply to
gregz

I had every window except the living room aluminum clad Andersons replaced with vinyl windows (inserts) 7 years ago. Crankouts on main floor, sliders in basement. They all still crank and latch fine, and slide fine. Brick house, no exterior window trim. Looks much better than the old wood double hungs, and aluminum storm windows. Look no different than the Andersons. White is white. They vinyls look the same as the day they were installed. They also clad the old frames and sills with aluminum. No maintenance at all. And the house loses less heat or cooled air. Don't know the brand, but a sticker says Guardian Acclimate Series. Couple guys who did windows for other family members. They work in the factory where the windows are made, so they get a good price or steal them. $4400 for 19 new windows. There were 22 old ones. but we replaced 3 triples with doubles. That's why I used vinyl - they were cheap. No regrets. They look good to me. White. Don't know what I'd do for new windows with a gingerbread house, and I'll never find out.

Reply to
Vic Smith

Some look cheap, others look pretty good.

Vinyl has many advantages with insulating value, cost, ease of installation, no maintenance, and best of all . . . no maintenance. No painting, no patching.

The final decision will depends on your budget, style of house, and personal preference. One big factor though, even a cheaply made vinyl window will keep you warmer than old wooden double hungs from 60 or

100 years ago. If you want "the best" look at some of the upper cost models and compare.

As for your roofer, it is easier to sell a Chevy than a Caddy so that is what many window guys offer.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.

With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they are maintenance free, right??

Reply to
clare

Might?? Make that "definitely won't". Even if they are pressure treated wood. I've seen a lot of Pellas that were JUNK in 15 years. Andersens too.

Reply to
clare

We used to carry a line of "archetectural" vinyl windows that looked great in older homes. Can't remember the brand but I THINK they came out of Quebec. Wood grain, stained, on the inside, and permacolour on the outside to match the house - older colours of green, brown, ivory, etc.

Reply to
clare

windows/siding as well.

The difference between crap and good is very small, cost-wize. From good to very good a bit more, and from very good to crazy over-the-top-fantastic is HUGE. And in many cases you pay for the "perception".. You need to know what you are paying for. Anything using Rehau extrusions is a quality window.

Reply to
clare

GOOD vinyl likely will. Stuff made of recycled material definitely will not (unless it lasts that long in the landfill)

Reply to
clare

On 5/9/2012 4:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote: ...

I guess the operative words there are "used to".

I've yet to see any vinyl (or fiberglass or other manmade substitute) that really fits in a period architecture. They stick out like a sore thumb no matter what.

There may somewhere be one that doesn't, but I've yet to see it.

Reply to
dpb

When I was in London I noticed the white vinyl really sticks out and looks tacky on the old rustic buildings. The vinyl ones I got for my house are the darkest I could find, and they blend in well, but they don't look as nice as the old aluminum ones did.

Reply to
gonjah

formatting link
The Proof Is In the Performance

The simple reason for this revolution is cost-effective performance, which is the primary reason for specifying vinyl windows for residential and light commercial projects. In addition to well-promoted consumer benefits of economy and ease of maintenance, that performance is well documented in several key areas of particular interest to architects and specifiers, which are listed below and described in further detail later in this article:

- Low Maintenance - Heat Build-Up Characteristics

- Energy Efficiency - Long-Term Durability

- Structural Strength - Green Building

- Weatherability - Lead Content

- Chemical Resistance - Dioxin Releases

- Fire Resistance - Solid Waste and Recyclability

- Impact Resistance - Design Flexibility

- Dimensional Stability - Exterior Colors and

- Thermal Expansion Interior Finishes

Low Maintenance

Perhaps the original benefit of vinyl windows that was heavily promoted to the homeowner, low maintenance has been a prime factor in the exploding market share that vinyl products have enjoyed ? including floors and wall coverings as well as windows and doors. With vinyl windows, color can be integral to vinyl frames through the addition of pigments to the vinyl formulation, not a surface coating, so there is never a need for touch-up due to scratches. Extremely durable, vinyl products resist rotting, chipping, peeling and corrosion, are not susceptible to insect or fungus attack, and can be easily cleaned with a solution of mild soap and warm water. In fact, vinyl?s ability to be cleaned easily and thoroughly makes it a popular material for use in hospitals and other health care environments.

The economic, durability and low maintenance attributes of vinyl windows and doors led Habitat for Humanity International to choose them for its volunteer-built homes for families in need. Due to ease of installation, vinyl windows are ideally suited to the varying skill levels of the thousands of workers involved in Habitat builds each year. Vinyl building products are a cornerstone of affordable housing.

Energy Efficiency

Vinyl?s popularity in the U.S. is largely due to energy efficiency. Because it is such an effective thermal insulator (having a low U-factor, also known as U-value), vinyl is well recognized as an excellent frame material for energyefficient windows. Currently, 43% of the windows listed in the National Fenestration Rating Council (NFRC) Certified Products Directory are framed with vinyl.

Many utilities are offering incentives to builders who install energy-efficient windows in homes. Federal and state tax incentives also offer rebates or special deductions for the use of these products. Vinyl windows are commonly used to meet these requirements. The Department of Energy?s (DOE) Energy Star® program sets forth climatedependent criteria for window performance which are easily met by vinyl products.

All energy-saving glazing options are of course available in vinyl windows: double or triple pane insulating glazing, with air or gas (argon or krypton) infills, or low emissivity (?low-E?) coatings. The latter are composed of an extremely thin layer of metal applied to glass to maximize beneficial solar heat gain and reflect heat back into the house. When applied to the outer pane (typically for use in hot climates), low-E coating minimizes heat gain and reflects heat back outdoors.

For example, the typical U-factor of vinyl window frames ranges from 0.3 to 0.5, with lower numbers meaning less heat flow and better thermal performance. The ultimate goal ? expressed in the U.S. Department of Energy?s ?2020 R&D Roadmap? ? is to develop windows that have zero annual energy cost. The industry already envisions ?super windows? that will use spectrally selective and automated electrochromatic glazing to admit solar heat gain in winter to supplant heat loss and reflect heat back outside in summer. The multi-chambered vinyl product frames are designed to trap air, known to provide optimal insulating characteristics against heat transfer year-round.

In addition to saving on home heating and cooling bills, the manufacture of vinyl products takes relatively little energy. Production of all vinyl products worldwide accounts for less than 0.3% of all oil and gas consumption, with windows and doors accounting for a small fraction of that. Vinyl Institute figures show that the use of vinyl as a construction material actually saves more than 40 million barrels of oil per year compared to other building and construction alternatives. Vinyl products in general have low embodied energy, which is the amount of energy used to convert raw material into a final product. A lifecycle study by Franklin Associates has shown that the use of vinyl over alternatives in window frames saves the United States nearly two trillion BTUs of energy per year, enough to meet the yearly electrical needs of 20,000 single-family homes.

(etc etc)

Reply to
Home Guy

...

That means that 57% aren't... :)

...

The typical U-factor for a wood window frame is also in the above range. At the last I saw, the ASHRAE Handbook doesn't distinguish in U performance ratings between wood and vinyl frame materials; only between them and Al and Al w/ thermal break. With double pane or more and hi-e glass options, the ability of a wood or vinyl window's performance is primarily owing to the selection of which glass, the number of panes and similar design details.

It seems the above site is primarily the trade association for the vinyl manufacturers; surely they're tooting their horn.

It boils down to cost is the driving factor at a given performance; a wood window is more expensive. Then again, it looks like something a vinyl window tries to imitate but invariably come up short against.

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Reply to
dpb

What isn't made of vinyl or plastics these days? If vinyl windows are as crappy as vinyl siding, I want no part of them. And if you get them, be sure to never use the BBQ grill near them. Ever seen what happens when a grill or any flame is near vinyl siding. I have, the shit just melts.

My choice would be plain wood windows, with aluminum storm windows. But do they still sell aluminum storms? I'm looking for 3 small aluminum storms for my back porch. The big box stores dont have them. One guy told me I will have to get them custom made, but could not tell me where. Just the use of the word "custom" tells me they will be extremely expensive.

I think they're something like 20 x 30 inches. I have four matching much larger alum storm windows. I've been considering making my own storms for the porch by taking these larger ones apart and cutting them smaller, but it seems like a huge job. The frames look easy enough to rebuild, but the windows themselves look a lot more complicated. I almost think I could build wooden ones easier. The interior windows and the frames are fine, it's just the storms that are rotting, and one actually fell apart, so I had to cut strips of tin to keep it together.

As far as vinyl lasting 100 years, all I can say is dream on.... Plastics exposed to sunlight just fall apart over time.

Reply to
tangerine3

...

...

I didn't notice them enough in London to make an impression--then again, the time in London was all spent in the historic areas that are pretty much controlled as to what restoration must do to preserve appearances.

I did notice in the time in and around Rochester/Chatham area where have spent quite a lot of time that in residences where weren't so controlled they seemed to pop up in retrofits that were often glaringly out of place, indeed. At least there didn't seem to be much of the g-awful vinyl siding... :)

I intend to eliminate the Al storms used when did the retrofit on this old farm house in favor of a traditional look when do the entry. Will likely also take the wide steel siding back off and revert to a narrow 3 to 4" siding to bring back the look of the original as nearly as possible. An old farm house ought to look like an old farm house, particularly on it's 100th b-day which is just a couple years away. I'm hoping to have it all spruced and be able to compare photo's to the ones have when it was nearly new taken some time in the early 20s.

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Reply to
dpb

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