Window repair question

[Zootal]

I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block the hole:

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4 framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess. Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the frame where the window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber weather stripping around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting and sealing windows like these?

[Frank]

Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with caulk. Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

[Zootal]

These leak when it rains - they may be at ground level, but they are still exposed to the elements. When the rain hits the ones on the south side of the house (that is the direction rain usually comes from), they leak. I'm trying to stick with the original 1948 design - glass panes in wood frames. Glass held in with 3/8 quarter round wood trim instead of caulk. Sealant between glass and frame itself so that it doesn't leak. My goal is to retain the original design, with sealant discretely applied to prevent rainwater from leaking in.

[Zootal]

PS. I thought of just replacing them as they are quite old, but I can fix all of them for about $100 total including glass, paint, sealant, etc., versus that much or more per window to replace them.

[dpb]

The picture from the inside looks as though the water has been coming from under the lower frame/sill between it and the wall opening, not around the window itself (there's no staining of the paint characteristic of water except below the window, not on the frame itself).

If so, it would seem need the caulking/sealing at that junction not the window panes, etc., ... depending on the outer wall profile perhaps could add some slope there by a fill-in mortar layer up to half- to three-quarters the depth of the tuba frame that would shed water much better than a flat opening. If they're set flush w/ the outer wall that's out, of course.

As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and the beading.

[norminn]

The windows, themselves, are nice and I can understand trying to preserve them. It would help greatly to have photos of the outside of the window to understand the problem completely...hope the frames aren't level with soil, and that soil slopes away from foundation.

Taking the windows apart, stripping, priming and repainting is good first step, but not entire solution. It helps, when repainting, to be sure that the coat of paint bridges the gap between the frame and the pane....keeps rain and condensation out of the wood so paint doesn't peel. Assuming the exterior sill is sloped, a simple sheet of plexiglass on the outside, screwed to the frame, might help the windows weather and provide better insulation.

[DerbyDad03]

From both an efficiency and security viewpoint, have you considered vented glass block?

$75 for what appears to be your size, and that was just the first place I looked.

DIY glass blocks kits might be cheaper.

Just a thought.

[Zootal]

I'm not sure what that is - it's old and been there forever. If it's from water leaks, it happened a long time ago. I looked at it a few years ago before I painted the walls, and it looked like it was part of the concrete. It's not just stains, it's thick, like something thick ran down the wall and solidified. Maybe I should take another look at it, but whatever it is it's very old. The window in the picture has never leaked, at least not since I've had the house, as it's sheltered from the rain. I also don't know when the wood frames were put in there, I don't think they are the original framing. The one in the pic was hacked into place - not the best of workmanship.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've read, the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use glazers' points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around it. Let it dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes appear to have used wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead of putty, yet the old glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm not sure now what the original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of time thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is very tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the process. The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get it out intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how to set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone makes, and there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

[hrhofmann]

en

I like the idea of 1/4 round to hold the glass in place with caulking to help waterproof and then lots of paint. The idea of a second layer of plexiglass as a "storm" window to help protect the 3-pane window seems great and will make a big difference in heat loss as well.

[dadiOH]

I doubt the weather stripping would help much. Caulk might help some, depends on where the water is entering (not where it comes out).

Water goes downhill so there are three areas where water could enter...

1. Between the glass and the rabbet in the window frame. This would only be true if the rabbet were on the inside of the window frame. If on the outside - as it should be - water could not go past the rabbet because the upper edge is higher than the bottom of the glass.
2. From the joints - particularly the lower two - between the horizontal and vertical members of the frame holding the glass.
3. From the joints - particularly the lower two - between the horizontal and vertical members of the frame holding the window itself.

Hard to tell from the photos but I suspect the biggest culprit to be #3. The bottom 2x4 in your #2 photo ahould have a rabbet in it so that the window sits down into the rabbet. That bottom should be sloped toward the outside. The end 2x4s should have their bottom ends fitted to the rabbet; those bottom edges need to be caulked or epoxied so that water can't pass around them. All four 2x4s need to be caulked where they meet the masonry wall. It wouldn't hurt to have a aheet metal drip edge overhanging the top one on the outside.

The wooden members of the frame holding the glass should be as above.

Do the above and it doesn't much matter how you hold in the glass, nothing will leak.

[Stormin Mormon]

Since it's exposed to water, I'd seal the cracks with bathtub caulk. Not like you have to hinge the windows open.

My parents house has windows some what similar, which do hinge open. That's useful in the summer when the humidity is high.

[MLD]

I like the idea of 1/4 round to hold the glass in place with caulking to help waterproof and then lots of paint. The idea of a second layer of plexiglass as a "storm" window to help protect the 3-pane window seems great and will make a big difference in heat loss as well.

Tried that once and got into the problem of condensation forming between the windows. Eventually had to get rid of the "storm window". MLD

[dpb]

Zootal wrote: ...

That's basically it -- I use a mixture of BLO/phenothol to prime the glazing area before setting the glass to help the linseed-based glazing compound bond. You can get by w/ simply priming if choose but use a latex primer thinly.

Dap (and others) makes an acrylic glazing that I don't recommend for glazing but is suitable for the bedding in that it fills irregularities easily and that's the key to the watertight seal you're looking for.

That's the disadvantage of the moulding to hold the glass in--sure, it does the mechanical job but unless it's set in something like a silcone caulk or similar there's no weather seal. And, if you do it that way, you can get a seal but you've just created a nearly impossible repair job if/when do need a repair.

Dap 33 is the common standard readily available; I like the Sarco available thru Abatron...

Glazing and getting a good finish is an art--be prepared to practice a time or two to get the hang of it. Key is a good knife and keeping it and hands clean and making the stroke firm and continuous once getting started.

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[Van Chocstraw]

I gutted mine, removed the wood frames and installed vinyl replacement thermopane energy star basement windows. No more screwing around with paint, putty and rot.

[Zootal]

I'm trying to keep the house true to the original design, even if it means paint, putty and rot :)

I thought of replacing them, but I can fix all of them for less then the cost of replacing just one :(

[Oren]

Not too even mention killing any basement drafts of cold air :-/

Oh, ya done good.

[dpb]

Zootal wrote: ...

Indeed, and if they're kept painted, etc., they'll last a long time.

On the energy thing, I intended to add in my earlier treatise the comment somebody did make about the idea of a solid plexiglass cover would likely be a problem from both condensation but a conventional storm over it would help.

It's not at all difficult to build them assuming the frames are deep enough to hold them and they would serve double-duty of the extra energy savings as well as a first barrier for the rain.

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[Zootal]

I don't necessarily have to replace the wood trim - these are basement windows that sit partially below ground level in small dugouts and they aren't highly visible. If it's easier to just fill the groove (rabbet?)(rabbit?) with putty, I can do that also.

I have some "glazing compound" that is "a siliconized acrylic formula". I also have some latex caulk, and some "siliconized latex caulk". That and silicone sealant seems to be all that is locally available. Silicon sealant is out - omg what a mess it made trying to clean that up after I removed the pane - in pieces. Gluing the pane to the frame just doesn't seem like a great idea. This stuff stuck to everything and was difficult to remove without damaging the wood. I may end up replacing a few of the cross pieces if I could figure out how to make them - I have a router and a couple dozen bits, but I'm not a carpenter, nor am I expert at using a router :(

If I had the expertise, I'd just rebuild the frame...alas, I'm a computer programmer, not a wood maker :(

[Zootal]

I might mention that these windows are for an unheated unfinished basement. It's full size, has a ton of storage, half dozen work benches, pingpong table, etc. but we don't go downthere much. I'm not sure how much heat loss goes through them. I live in the mid-Willamette Valley, Oregon, and sub-freezing weather is rare. We use wood heat for the top two floors, and I think my stove is oversized for the house as it is - two or three loads of wood and we are toasty as can be :)

But seriously, it would not be that hard to use double or even triple pane glass - would it be worth the effort since the basement is not heated?

[dpb]

Zootal wrote: ...

Don't quite follow--you lay a thin bed and press the glass into it, then insert the glazers' points. Then you lay a rope of glazing compound in the rabbet on top of the glass and work it into place (at this point looks don't matter a hoot). Then, take the putty knife and make a stroke that both leaves the smooth angled surface and cuts the edge on the glass at the same time. Done. Repeat.

You don't want any of the caulks at all for this job.

I'd have to know what the particular product is on the other to have an opinion. I know of one particular product of that general description that has generally good ratings but its application is totally different in practice than for traditional glazing as it doesn't have the consistency to use a putty knife successfully; they make a special plastic forming tool to use with it. If it's that product, I don't recommend it for the neophyte.

I can't believe the local hardware store or building supply won't have DAP 33 on the shelf in the red can.

...

To replace a muntin (that's what the little dividers are called) you would need a window sash bit--CMT/Whiteside/Amana/others make sets. To use one, you'll have to have a way to set up your router in a table w/ a fence--you can't do it freehand.

Then, you'll have to diassemble the window to insert them, of course...again, it's not rocket science but does take some practice if not familiar w/ the "how to". I think it's the Whiteside web site that has a description of how to use the router bit set.

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