Three way switch - FIXTURES IN MIDDLE

[av]

Ok. I know how to install a 3way switch circuit with the fixture at the end. I can even understand the diagram in my book for a 3way switch circuit with the fixture in the middle. But what if there is more than one fixture in the middle? With that I'm stuck.

I'm fearing that I goofed. I already have the wires installed that I thought that I needed for this. I have, already, a 2wire to the first switch, and then I have 3wire from that to the first fixture, second fixture, third fixture, and second switch. I'm fearing that I should have put in an extra 2 wire line from the first fixture to go to the other fixtures. Is that right? (I hope not.)

So the question really is: with the way I have it now (with 3wire running through the fixtures, do I just pretend there is no second switch going on until the very last fixture? I'm unclear as to when to mark the white wire as hot. I certainly can't do that with the first fixture. When do you tape the white wire to mark it hot? Or, how do I pigtail in the 2nd and 3rd fixtures with the 3wire running through them??

I'd appreciate any reply or links to sites. (I've been searching through alot, including two manuals I have, but they never digram having more than one fixture.)

av(at)sover.net

[HerHusband]

Have a look at this web site:

It does a great job showing a variety of different wiring schemes for 3-way switches.

Adding additional fixtures in the middle shouldn't be much more difficult, if the 3-wires run through all the fixtures. Just add them in parallel to the first.

Hope this helps.

Anthony

[SQLit]

Yep your right.

White as hot,,, your confused. The only way this is going to work is abandon the 3 way idea or add a new 3 wire romex from switch to switch.' You must have 2 travelers, a hot, a neutral the white, a ground and a switch leg. The hot is at one end, the switch leg comes off the other end then goes to the fixtures. Maybe feed them all hot and install an remote control systems.

[Toller]

And how exactly is he supposed to add them in parallel? Assuming he means

4wire ( x/3) when he says 3wire, he has two travelers and a neutral running through each fixture. He can do one fixture that way, or two in series, but there is no way to do two fixtures in parallel. He needed to use 5wire for this application.

There are some expensive electronic switches that will work with one less wire, though I have never tried one.

[av]

But doesn't show how to add another fixture!!

Well, yes of course, but using which wires? When I tried parallel (or what I thought was parallel) it didn't work.

If I pigtail the fixtures off the wires, it appears to defeat the 3way switching.

av

[av]

You sure?

No I'm not! You're supposed to attach a black wire to a white wire (and tag it to show that it is "hot").

The only way this is going to work is abandon

This doesn't make sense. You appear to be saying add another 3wire to my 3wire! Why in the world have 2 3wires?

I have two travelers: red and white.

I'd appreciate a more direct response to my problem and not simply assume that I don't understand 3way switching. I have accomplished that. If I just bypass all the fixtures (wiring red-red, black-black etc) and wire up only ONE fixture (as per correct method of 3way switch wiring) it works fine. I just can't figure out how to add the other two switches to the circuit using the 3wire that is running through them.

av

[HA HA Budys Here]

I'm sure he's sure.

It makes perfect sense.

When there's only 1 fixture involved, it's essencially in "series" with the

3-way switch "loop."

You've got 3 fixtures. Now it's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

What you need to do is splice through fixture 2 & 3 as though they weren't there, splice fixture 1 to work properly with the 3-way set, and run a 2-wire from fixture 1 to fixture 2 & 3.

*you mean lights.

[hvacrmedic]

For any configuration of 3-way switches: Hot from the panel goes directly to one of the switches, common terminal. Travelers go directly from switch to switch.

Common terminal of the other switch feeds back to the hot side of every load. Neutral from panel goes directly to neutral side of every fixture. There are no less than a dozen workable wiring configurations. The best is the one that uses the least wire. Mark with colored tape every white not connected directly to the neutral buss bar.

The number of conductors required in each pull depends upon the configuration used.

hvacrmedic

[Wayne Whitney]

Well, let me have a go: I believe the short answer is that you can't, you need 4 conductors (plus ground) between the fixtures. The way I like to think about n-way switching is:

a) the neutral has to go just as far as the last fixture. b) the travelers have to go from the first switch to the second switch. c) a "switched hot" has to go from the second switch to the fixtures.

Using --3-- to denote a cable with 3 conductors (plus bare ground), the usual "fixture in the middle" setup is "SW1 --3-- FIX --3-- SW2", where the first cable is carrying the neutral (white) and the two travelers (black and red), and the second cable is carrying the travelers (black and red) and the switched hot (white marked as hot).

However, in the case of multiple fixtures in the middle, you need 4 conductors between the fixtures: "SW1 --3-- FIX1 --4-- FIX2 --3-- SW2". That cable between the two fixtures has to carry four things: the two travelers in route from SW1 to SW2 (black and red), the neutral going to FIX2 (white), and the switched hot coming from SW2 (fourth color) to actually power FIX1.

So I believe that if you have only 3 conductor cable betweeen your fixtures, you need to add an additional conductor. I don't know whether the NEC allows you to have parallel cables making up a single circuit, or if you have to run a new 4 conductor cable.

Hope this helps.

Yours, Wayne

[Don Young]

[av]

Using --3-- to denote a cable with 3 conductors (plus bare ground),

It would if I weren't reading this at 530 in the morning. :o)

It corroborates something I (finally) found diagramed on a website:

- option 7. Complicated as $&*T. But worse, as I mentioned, I already have the ceiling up and all nicely painted. And this is not a regular stud wall so I can't even begin to think about snaking anything. It looks like I'm not going to have to figure out a "nice" way to run a cable on the face of the wall. Does Ralph Lauren make designer wire?

Also, Mr. HA HA BUDDY wrote previously that I could just run a 2wire from the first fixture (that is already wired to work with the 3way switches) out to the other two fixtures. That sounds plausible to me, and uses less wire, i.e. a "nicer" way. Any second opinions on that?

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HAS RESPONDED SO FAR. I've sure learned a hell of a lesson about 3way switching with this mistake!

av

[HerHusband]

AV,

When I first responded to your message, I was thinking the fixtures were at the end of the run. I apologize for not reading your message better.

Are the fixtures located on the walls or on the ceiling?

Any chance of going up to the attic, or down to the crawlspace/basement to get your cables from one point to another?

Yes, that will work, but you'll have to figure out how to get the new cable installed.

If all else fails, you might want to look into wireless options. Check out smarthome.com for some ideas.

Good luck!

Anthony

[Wayne Whitney]

An additional 2 conductor cable should be plenty to fix things. If I understand correctly your physical setup is currently (using --3-- for a 3-conductor cable with ground): Power --2-- SW1 --3-- FIX1 --3-- FIX2 --3-- FIX3 --3-- SW2 And as discussed, you needed to run 4 conductor cable between the fixtures for this to work.

As far as fixing things, the minimum you need to add is a conductor from FIX1 to FIX3. But adding a conductor from SW1 to SW2 would also work, or from SW1 to FIX3, or FIX1 to SW2. Whatever is simplest from a physical standpoint. In any of these cases, you can use the new conductor as part of one of the travelers, freeing up a conductor in the existing cables for neutral or switched hot.

BTW, watch out for the box fill limits.

Cheers, Wayne

[av]

ok you're redeemed. :o)

ceiling lights!

above the ceiling (which is hammered into beams with all of about 2 inch space) is solid stress skin paneling, and above that is my bedroom and office (covered in solid oak flooring).

and there is no attic. it's cathedral ceiling to the roof.

i'm cornered!!!

i think i have to bite the bullet and put in some sort of exterior chasing. i was thinking of builing a huge big box that would cover all the 3 fixture boxes, and then cover that box with some sort of frosted glazing (which would hide all the extra wiring), but i'm too tired.

hmmmm.... i'll see. but sounds expensive already. :o0

thanks. av

[av]

yes that's what i presently have.

i know! did i mention that i only have pancake boxes installed for each fixture? i *might* be able to change that, depending if i can find other fixtures that would accept them.

oy, what a mess!!!

but thank you! av

[Andy Asberry]

Whoa! Wait. Are you adding fixtures or switches?

[Wayne Whitney]

Your fixtures boxes at present have 6 conductors in them. Assuming they have an integral cable clamp, then they should be a minimum of 16 in^3 in volume for 14 AWG wire, or 18 in^3 in volume for 12 AWG. I don't know how big your pancake boxes are, but I doubt they are 16 in^3 in volume.

It sounds like you have much more basic problems than your 3-way switching difficulties. You need to change all the boxes to something bigger. Perhaps while you are doing this, you can change the existing cable runs from 3-conductor to 4-conductor by using the 3-conductor cable to pull new 4-conductor cable (or two 2-conductor cables). If you do this, you'll have 8 conductors in the fixtures boxes, so they need to be at least 20 in^3 for 14 AWG wire or 22.5 in^3 for 12 AWG wire.

Cheers, Wayne

[HA HA Budys Here]

Is now a good time to mention... Jewtrals? :-)

[HerHusband]

AV,

You didn't mention what was in the walls or the floor.

Is there any chance of running a new 3 wire cable from one switch to the other? Maybe down through the crawlspace/basement, or even behind the baseboard of the wall?

If you can directly connect the two switches, you should be able to reconfigure the 3-way circuit so the fixtures end up on the end of the circuit. You could simply disregard the third wire that is running to the fixtures.

Possible?

It has been a while since I looked into it, but I was going to add some wireless stuff in our mobile because they put all the kitchen/dining lights on a single switch. But, we're building a new house instead, so I don't care anymore... Ha Ha.

I'm sure wireless wouldn't be cheap, but compared to some of the alternatives, it might be the least expensive solution.

Anthony

[av]

hi... still there? I haven't looked into this thread in a couple of days. sorry.

your idea is a very good one were it not for the fact that the room is built on top of an old concrete slab. you don't want the whole story do you? ;o)

suffice to say, there's just no way to run anything underneath at this point. as it is, i had to build up the floor on some 2x6's so i could have a floor in the first place!

av the room is rather odd. i