It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. The only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's $600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed tankless and more if it's a retrofit. I can see the $2500+ for some, maybe a lot of retrofits. But for a straight swap it seems very high. And I would disagree that a well insulated tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss through the pipes. The basic, cheap conventional that he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle of the hot tank. A significant amount of heat is lost via that path when the tank is just sitting there. You can reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units, but then those are significantly more money and like a tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.
I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers of tankless come and go. That may be true with some, but there are major manufacturers that have been around a long time, including well established companies that make both tank and tankless.
Maybe spend a little more time pondering it (you know shit and stuff)
Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water heaters have come and gone"
The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60 years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.
It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. The only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's $600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed tankless and more if it's a retrofit. I can see the $2500+ for some, maybe a lot of retrofits. But for a straight swap it seems very high. And I would disagree that a well insulated tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss through the pipes. The basic, cheap conventional that he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle of the hot tank. A significant amount of heat is lost via that path when the tank is just sitting there. ===============================================
But there is also a "draft break" from that stand-off ditty, so that the chimbley effect is not nearly as onerous heat-wise as without that break.
But, I would still like to see a powered vent, that closes when the unit is off, opens when on.
Seeing as how Sears et al bangs people for $1,000 for a "non-standard install" that takes all of one hour extra, I can only imagine the banging people get for a tankless install. I'll bet they hype a "1 year ROI" on a $3,000 installation....
You can reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units, but then those are significantly more money and like a tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.
I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers of tankless come and go. That may be true with some, but there are major manufacturers that have been around a long time, including well established companies that make both tank and tankless. ===================================================
No doubt there is *some* spin in the article.... lol
His point about "instant on" has another piece to it. With a tank water heater, AND a recirculating pump, you can indeed have true "instant on". With tankless, I don't think this is possible -- your "on" will be obligatorily delayed by the length of the run. This could be a major issue for epicureans.
I think he is def'ly right about the tankless hype, tho. I don't see too many people benefitting from a conversion to tankless, esp. utility-wise, and overall cost-to-own-wise. I'll bet that those who do like the conversion to tankless didn't have their trad'l tank system set up or sized correckly.
Speaking of epicureans..... Has your bedside/ng manner been improving??
Forgivable spin, imo. Not so forgivable is the tankless hype.
..... whatever..... Talking thermodynamics to your dumbass is f'sure pointless.....
Tankless is hype. Any honest breakdown of the economics will show sig'ly higher cost-to-own for most people. Not that the technology/systems is so so bad -- still thermodynamically profligate, but in larger part, the "infrastructure" for plain ole water heaters is so large, that that in itself gives the trad'l a homefield advantage.
Hey, but I know this is over yer head, and it would be a, uh, tankless task explaining it to you. And I know I'm distracting you from preparing for your single-sleeping-bag BoiScout campout with JoeBoi.... have fun.....
Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as the author claims.
There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for them yet 2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years. Change is slow I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.
A lot of the rest of the world has a lot of things going on in the economy that are not governed by free market economics, but instead by govt mandates, regulations, subsidies, etc. For one thing, the cost of energy is typically substantially higher in many places than it is here. People in those other parts of the world could just as easily point to the huge market for water heaters in the USA and how little of it is tankless as evidence that tank type is superior.
Most of what is pointed out in that link is true. Particularly that the total cost of installing a tankless, particularly if it's a retrofit, skew the economics so that it's unlikely you'll ever recover the higher initial cost here in the USA, where nat gas is still relatively modest cost.
Of course the fact that in a lot of retrofit cases you have to increase the line size all the way back to the gas meter, maybe replace the gas meter too, put in new venting, etc has nothing to do with it, right? Or the fact that if the power goes out, with a tank type, you still have hot water for 2 days?
If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning. If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy they couldn't drive to work. Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....
Just because a manufacturer is still =93around=94=20 doesn=92t necessarily mean that they still carry the parts.=20 Most manufacturers of anything don=92t maintain parts=20 for anything over five years old.=20 I can=92t begin to count the times=20 I have had to give-up on a model of something or another=20 just because they no longer had a part for it.
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That sure has not been my experience. Recently bought a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old. I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw that's 40 year old. In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but that's an extreme case. And even then, used parts show up on Ebay. I can't recall when I've had a problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing that's 10 or 15 years old. The key is "worth repairing". If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.
ote:
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I had to tell my client that the cartridges=20 for his top of the line matching Grohe=20 lavatory faucets were no longer available.=20 The faucets were fifteen years old=20 and for a high prices manufacturer like Grohe=20 that=92s considered very new.=20 Sure you might be able to get it on E-Bay=20 but you won=92t know if you=92re getting a rebuilt=20 that=92s going to start leaking in a few months.=20 Another client had a built in Kenmore microwave oven=20 that Sears said they no longer had the magnetron to.=20 I can understand not having some obscure part but a magnetron?=20 Give me a break.
Turn that around for a minute - and put the tank heater in the place of the tankless, and North America in place of Europe innyour arguement.
The tank heater has been in use twice as long in North America as the tankless has been in Europe
The plumbers should be laughing all the way to the bank. Maintenance costs are AWFULL.
Point of use water heaters are a different story - THEY actually make sense.
many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a hot shower was nice......
after cutting up downed trees all day:(
That worth repairing must apply to Fords. A coworker had a Ford truck that was about 5 years old and something broke on it. I think it had to do with the electric windows, but not sure. Anyway he could not get the part from Ford and had been around to a lot of junk yards and none were available.
Now if he had a Modle T he could probably get almost anyting for it. Not from Ford, but many aftermarket places.
Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.
The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in the storage tank for use in the summer.
Perce
I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the shower head. ^_^
TDD
and the voltage is 220 volts in them there places.
that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently one of the only places it can go.
When I was a kid, my grand parents lived in the 2nd floor of a house. Took near to forever for the hot water to get up from the cellar. I'm sure they would have benefitted from an instant.
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that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently one of the only places it can go.
That=92s usually because they have their balconies closed-off to make more = living space and they can=92t afford to have a plumber run lines to it anyw= ay let alone have the lines enclosed so that the apartment doesn=92t look l= ike a machine room. The really funny thing is when they come to the U.S. th= ey usually buy the same type of dinky condos that they left behind. Un-f=92= n-believable.
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