residential electrical question

The higher ratings can help with derating but 2005NEC 240.4D generally limits #14 to 15A circuits.

bud--

Reply to
Bud--
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But you wouldn't have posted what you just did without including the part in parentheses, would you? Because you're not irresponsible.

What you say is good to know, but the previous poster didn't say anything about needing special insulation -- and I'll bet you any money didn't know about the possibility -- and I'm sure the OP doesn't have special insulation. Yet he was told "Go ahead it's cool".

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

Reply to
mm

I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

This reminds me of a post here from a few years ago. Someone had added a couple of receptacles in a garage. The circuit was wired with 18AWG lamp cord in the attic. He wasn't using a welder on it, but whoever bought that house might want to.

[snip]
Reply to
Mark Lloyd

Mark, 310.16 does show a 90c ampacity for 14gaa wire but that number is only used in derating calculations. For pretty much everything but special motor circuits the rule that applies is 240.4(D) in the overcurrent protectioon section. It says 14ga has to be protected with a 15a breaker (12ga 20a, 10ga

30a). The main reason for that is they know it will be the userr who decides what will get plugged in so they build in the recomended safety factor in the allowed breaker side. There is also another rule to apply. Romex can only be used as defined in the 60c column. (334.80) That applies to all sizes.
Reply to
gfretwell

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Nothing should ever be grounded to a water pipe.

Reply to
Doug Miller

The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an

Really? Please cite the article.

Reply to
Doug Miller

It used to be that they should. Is the change because of the possible use of plastic pipe, or something else?

The 120V receptacle for my washer is grounded at the electrical panel. The 240V receptacle for the dryer is not.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

Reply to
w_tom

Yellow jackets on 12/2 (and blue ones on AFCI-protected 14/2) are a newish convention that the cable makes have brought forth; I don't think it's code (here at least) and at any rate it's only come out within the past couple of years. So don't presume that your cable is 14 ga just because it's white; I have much white 12 ga in my house. Look for the printing on the cable, or examine the conductors with a wire gauge.

If it really is 14 ga, replace the breaker with a 15A one. If only your washer is using the circuit, it shouldn't trip it. (If it does, something's wrong and needs to be fixed; your 14 ga has been overloaded. If the washer has a normal parallel-blade plug it should be ok on a 15 A circuit.)

Your code may require a "dedicated" circuit for a washing machine, and would prohibit two outlets on the circuit. However, I'm pretty sure even a "dedicated" circuit can be a duplex outlet, so you could replace the simplex outlet with a duplex and run the washer and the 'lectric litterbox at the same time. I see no advantage to adding a second receptacle; surely the litterbox would be happy on a good extension cord if distance is the issue.

And you could certainly try making it a GFCI receptacle. Nuisance trips from the washer are a possibility but wouldn't be the end of the world; it's not like it's a freezer or a sump pump. If they're too frequent then you'd probably want to revert it to a normal receptacle. (Actually, I have my sump pump on a GFCI and I've had no nuisance trips at all.)

(Were you trying to jumper across two hot terminal screws on a GFCI receptacle? No, no, no. Those are the "in" and "out" connectors; the former gets the power feed from upstream, and the latter are for feeding downstream outlets that you want to provide GFCI protection to. It is not at all the same as a normal duplex outlet in which each outlet can be fed from its own terminals.)

Chip C Toronto

Reply to
Chip C

The NEC simply says you need a 20a circuit serving the laundry receptacles. That could be the washer, iron and blower for a gas dryer.

Mark says his dryer isn't grounded, that is the WWII exception that allows dryer and ranges to be grounded by way of the neutral.

CMP 5 decided in 1996 that the war was finally over and they now require 4 wires to a range and dryer.

Reply to
gfretwell

LOL Beautiful...

Reply to
Speedy Jim

This house was probably built about 1969.

I know someone who had an electric dryer installed about 2 years ago (in a house with no 240V wiring, only 120V). That electrician used a

3-prong connection.

I have seen one 4-prong device. It was for the big ceramic kiln my grandmother had installed about 1955. The elements could operate on low or high (I suppose low meant 120V and high was 240V).

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

If it is only a 120v load there is only going to be 3 wires. One hot, one neutral and one ground. You need the 4th if you have 120 and 240 volt loads in the same appliance. Two hots a ground and a neutral. Dryers usually have 120v timers, lights and blower motors with 240v heating elements. Ranges use 120v lights and timers.

Reply to
gfretwell

Sorry for the misunderstanding. BEFORE getting the dryer, the house had only 120V service. The dryer itself required adding a 240V line.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

How can a house built in 1969 only have 120v service? The code required 100a @ 240v long before that

Reply to
gfretwell

According to Mark Lloyd :

Depends on how much thermal insulation there is.

The free air melt current of bare 18ga is 100A. Yet, the "safe" current for insulated 18ga is around 5A.

Heavily buried in insulation, I'd expect a 14ga wire to melt with 30A continuous. In free air, it'd be difficult to tell it was getting warm.

14ga at 30A will be generating about .9W/foot. It's all a matter of heat dissipation.
Reply to
Chris Lewis

When asking a question on Usenet, please remember always to view trhe answers you get with a critical eye. The reply above is an excellent example of the reason why.

Greg Guarino

Reply to
Greg G

It's difficult to know whether you are hearing from an experienced professional, or a fifteen-year-old brat with a little knowledge.

Reply to
Bert Byfield

This is just a case where someone saw something in the NEC that they don't understand and they came to the wrong conclusion.

Reply to
gfretwell

If a copper wire in free air melted, you'd have hot drops of molten copper falling around. Some may even fall on you.

If a copper wire is well insulated, you get something very different. Liquid copper becomes a superconductor (as long as it's contiguous, and contained by plastic insulation). You can also obtain liquid state breakers (open circuit if current falls below threshold), switches, etc... at an electrical supply house (not available at Home Depot). Operating your wiring that way will greatly reduce your utility bills.

Note that the above paragraph is meant to be read only by knowledgeable, intelligent people who can determine it's state of truth. No idiots please.

Reply to
xxx

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