residential electrical question

[mrbigg]

I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine. I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1

14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the receptacle ?

[Bob]

As long as you don't increase the breaker size, but it would be easier to just donate the cat to a Chinese restaurant.

[Sev]

Hang on- are you talking about a 20 amp circuit? Is the breaker a

20A? Isn't 14/2 rated for 15A? Only an amateur here, but I'm hoping someone more knowledgable can clear this up. Better I make a fool of myself than you set up a potential house fire.

[Rush Limballes]

[Bob Vaughan]

You are correct.. 14 is rated for 15 amps, and 12 is rated for 20 amps. If you have 14/2 wiring, the breaker feeding it must be 15 amps. If you are using #12 for that circuit (and it must be the entire circuit), you can use a 20 amp breaker.

As a rule, you can always use a breaker rated for less than the capacity of the smallest wire in the circuit, but you should never do the opposite.

You can use either a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle on either a 15 or 20 amp circuit, except when using a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, in which case it must be a 20 amp receptacle. (I think in this case, 'single' refers to the number of locations, and a duplex receptacle would be be considered a 'single' receptacle.)

[waldowonka]

Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.

[buffalobill]

yes. you have 15 amp 14/2 with no ground. you should have a grounded outlet for your washer. appliances like this are designated to be connected to a separate grounded circuit. white is supposed to be the ac common, and black the hot. by changing to a 15 amp gfi you will overcome the shock hazard from the ungrounded washer and keep the cat safe. if it pops when you plug the wahser into it your washer had an undiscovered shock hazard. an ac radio will help you find an unmarked breaker.

[Scott Townsend]

You should not jumper the two Hots on the GFI Recept. You wire up the GFI Recept differently then a normal Recept. The Hot is Already connected internally though the GFI Circuitry, as it the Neutral.

So if you just want to use the 2 Outlets that are on the GFI, just hook up the top outer screws on the GFI, You don't need to hook up the bottom set unless you are going to feed another outlet.

If you are going to feed another outlet, then you hook up the other outlets to the LOAD side (inner bottom) of the GFI.

the Different Color for 12/x romex is not that old. I still have lots of White 12/2. You would normally have 12/2 with a 20a breaker and 14/2 with a

15a breaker.

Scott Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white

[spudnuty]

On GFCIs that I've worked with (Leviaton, Cooper) one set of (2) brass (y'know black-brass-burn your -ss) and chrome (usually) screws are marked "Line". The other two are marked "Load" . Connect to the load to connect other outlets that you want protected. Sounds like you connected the in and out together. The GFCI won't like that. All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a metallic cold water pipe. Use crimp screw connectors and #12 stranded green wire. Find the grounding points on the back of the appliances. As far as the grounded outlet is concerned, with the GFCI you'll be closer to code. The wire gauge would be written on the side of the cable and #14 is rated at 15 A. The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it. Richard

[waldowonka]

thats the ticket. Thanks ...

[gfretwell]

HUH? Can you cite that rule?

[Scott Townsend]

RE:"The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it."

Whoa... So you mean all of the Lighting Circuit outlets I just put in the Garage for the Plug in Shop lights the Inspector is going to complain about?

I put in 3 outlets per circuit all branched from a Junction box..

hmmm...

Scott

[Toller]

I would like to see him reference grounding appliances to water pipes. Thats actually a violation isn't it?

[buffalobill]

[mm]

Electric catbox? Is this like an electric chair for cats? Cool man. How many can you do a day?

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[mm]

Do you realize that news propagation is such that almost no one gets every post? So they may not get the other posts that correct you.

This post has no humor at all.

Your stupid answers are getting too stupid and if sometime someone believes you, you may kill him or his family. Are you 25 y.o. going on 12?

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[Bud--]

Laundry circuits for a long time have be 20A. The Romex high probablilty is 12-2.

More than one receptacle on a circuit (including duplex): 15A ckt - 15A outlets (a 20A outlet could power a 20A device) 20A ckt - 15 or 20A outlets (a 15A duplex outlet can supply a total of 20A but 15A max for each outlet)

Single receptacle on a circuit: the outlet has to be rated higher amperage than the circuit - 15A circuit - 20A outlet, or 30A or 50A... This is a bizare provision which may make sense for odd receptacles like twist lock, but any competent person on a residential circuit would use: 15A circuit - 15A outlet 20A circuit - 20A outlet (15A not permitted)

bud--

[spudnuty]

I'm IBEW. We've been using #14 for years for 15 A circuits. Lately we're seeing as noted here:

"minimum 12AWG copper wire for 20 amp circuits minimum 14AWG wire, copper or 12 awg aluminum for 15 amp circuits (some local codes require a minimum of 12 gauge for 15 amp circuits, except for switch legs - that is, circuit portions that are strictly between a light switch and the light that it serves." Early in the year we had to pull out a bunch of #14 and replace it with #12. Talk about a pain. The paraphrase of the actual section as applies here, also noted by bud above: "Section 220-3b of the code requires two special circuits to serve only appliance outlets in kitchen, laundry, pantry, family-room, dining room, and breakfast room. Both circuits must be extended to the kitchen; the other rooms may be served by either one or both of these circuits. No lighting outlets may be connected to these circuits, and they must be wired with No. 12 wire and protected by a 20-ampere overcurrent device." But then it still depends on the inspector. and Scott I don't think an inspector will be checking out your garage. You're probably in compliance with all local codes. as far as grounding is concerned, from; "If it is considered existing construction it may either be installed with a 2 prong receptacle, replaced with an ungrounded GFCI or the code makes provision to run a separate equipment ground wire(green #12 min.) to bond the metal of the appliance to a well grounded cold water system.." Talking about frame grounding here.The OP has only #14/2 no ground at all. He's one step up with the GFCI and if it's 6 feet from a sink it's code. I think "Hmm water and possible electricity even if it's not near a sink" There might be the possibility of false trips of the GFCI but I haven't seen one yet. I just pulled a motor out of a neighbors dishwasher. It was a GE the fan on the pump motor had broken lose from the shaft and worn the insulation on the front side of most of the field coils. Finally wearing completely through them. Since the motor was mounted to the frame of the washer the frame and the door was electrically hot when the pump was running. Luckly none of their kids touched that when it was running. I think a ground bonding wire should have been installed here.

Scott Townsend wrote:

[gfretwell]

14/2 refers to the current carrying conductors.

They NEVER made white plastic Romex without a ground. The only Romex made without a ground was the asphalt impregnated fiber covered stuff shortly after WWII. That was replaced with a reduced sized ground in the 50s and by the 60s when the plastic cover came the ground was upped to full sized. You may still see reduced size ground in some transitional plastic Romex but there will be a ground.

[Mark Lloyd]

I found a table that says the allowable current for 14AWG (copper) is

15A. The table also shows 25A and 30A (with specific types of insulation).