How come the Utah mine cave-in coverage has included almost no scenes
of family or miners staked out at the mine wating for news, etc., few
if any interviews with nervous family, etc., few if any pictures at
night, like coverage of the mine cave-in in Pa. a few years ago did?
And the owner denies they were doing retreat mining, but if they were,
isn't retreat mining done by standing between the pillars to be
removed and the opening of the mine, so that when the pillars are
removed and maybe the ceiling caves in, the miners are on the open
side of the cave-in, and can just take the train out, or walk?
Pretty much obviously, no you don't remove pillars between yourself and
the portal and yes, the plan is for any "controlled" falls to be away
from the entrance/exit side. In general, the idea is not for the roof
falling immediately at all, but eventually it may. Of course, sometimes
things don't always go as planned.
For media access, I suspect most of that has to do w/ relative location
to media locations and population being both much closer to population
areas and larger population in the east as compared to UT combined w/
differences between eastern and western US (outside of the coastal urban
From what I've seen reported it's not really clear what operation this
crew was actually doing during that shift. Murray says they weren't
pillaring, but it seems clear that pillaring was/is at least part of the
mine's overall operations. It may be that this particular crew and
shift wasn't actually pillaring so technically he's right.
It's also not at all clear how far in the ceiling fall is from the
portal and how far from the working face it is. It makes me wonder if
they weren't perhaps roof-bolting at the time, not actually mining given
the sled found near/under the debris so far by the recovery/rescue
crews, but that's supposition in large part. But it doesn't seem to
correlate w/ pillaring operations for them to have been where they seem
to have been if they were actively engaged in retreat pillaring mining.
Of course, this could all be shown to be a completely wrong set of
deductions if they were to happen to show a plan of the mine and where
the fall is located, etc., today. So far, for some reason, I've seen no
actual mine maps, etc., only "artist's rendition" kinds of drawings so
can't tell for sure...
Simply observations based on what I have seen and what I learned of
mining do service support on ashmeters, one of which happens to be only
a few miles from Crandall Canyon...
The main thing I learned is its a rough/tough way to make a living...
That\'s all based only on what little I have seen reported which as you
note ain\'t a lot on the actual mining operations at Crandall Canyon and
From what I seen of the podium and the bored Newsies talking to each
other, it seems as though there are plenty there. I think the reason for
lack of media access to the families is basically the families not
making themselves available and/or telling the media to get stuffed.
From what I've read the collapse wasn't a cave-in, it was a bounce (commonly
called a heave), e.g. the floor came up to meet the ceiling. Bounces can be
predicted with some accuracy but the technical staff has to be working the
problem and communicating with the miners. There may not be a "safe" exit
because of the mechanics of the situation.
I've talked with a miner that experienced a bounce and it destroyed the
equipment (the load cylinders for lack of a technical name) which is intended
to provide structural support on a long-wall machine. Pretty scary is an
I've been following the story and some of the earlier reports mentioned
"heaving." A quick survey this morning shows the word "collapse" is
frequently used so maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell.
The report of a mostly intact ceiling seen in the downhole video certainly
doesn't preclude a cave-in or collapse in a different portion of the mine.
The reported five and a half foot clear space with an intact ceiling does get
a little suspicious if the original chamber had more clear space.
Of course, a fall certainly typically is relatively local in nature and
if there were seismic activity of any kind there could be damage in many
distant parts of the mine. The earliest reports I saw indicated
USGS-monitored activity that was initially attributed (by the media
apparently, not USGS) to be the precursor but has to the best of my
knowledge now been determined to have been the result, not the cause.
If that's what you heard, then I think I know what you heard. Of
course, that Murray _wants_ it to have been seismically induced is
understandable, but I'm thinking it will probably be shown not to have
been in the end.
All, of course, is still yet TBD as to what the actual state is and root
cause(s) was(were). From what I've seen of the pictures at the portal
and so on, it looks like a seam depth of about 6-ft is pretty close
guess so don't think the borehole camera shot showed anything grossly
out of line of what was expected. As I noted in other posting, I've not
been at the Crandall mine itself but another down the main canyon a
several miles by road. I believe it is mining the same seam on a
different canyon face and that's typical seam depth there.
It's not looking good for anything other than bad news in the end,
Interesting...not on any footage I've seen, but I've not seen a lot,
either, I'll grant. Been e-mailing a buddy in SLC on it, though, and
asked him what he's heard in that regard...if I learn more real, I'll
stick a short note in.
Privacy, but I was confused by something I heard when the first got
the 8 inch drill through... They said there was not enough "light"
for the camera to see past 15 feet. My immediate thought was, why in
the hell are they NOT using infrared cameras? With IR they need no
light and the warm bodies of the survivors would stand out like
flametorch even across 500 feet of cold cave.
Because those who are experienced with the insensitivity and aggressiveness
of the media would deliberately place the families AWAY from the media and
bar access of the media to the families. The families are of course free to
do as they wish, however I would not imagine talking to the media would be
something they would feel like doing.
If a reported sneaked in to where the family members are, I would imagine
the families would run that reporter off with a quickness! And the reporter
would be lucky to escape without physical injury... (You would not believe
the insensitive questions reporters ask in situations like this!)
On top of this, apparently some, maybe all of the miners may be
illegals. Try to find the miners names. News articles I've scanned say
that the names are out there but do not give them. Liberal media could
be protecting them not wishing to add the complication of this to the
Well, at least one of the three major networks I saw aired pictures w/
names of five of the six (but apparently had no picture for the sixth)
and only an empty frame for him. Their names were given under each as
well as ages and hometown and numbers of immediate family members so
that doesn't appear to be a rational explanation...
After the Sago mis-communication, where the families were informed
everyone survived, only to find out only one survived. I dont blame
the mine company one bit if they tell the press to get lost for a
while, we're busy.
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