How come the Utah mine cave-in coverage has included almost no scenes of family or miners staked out at the mine wating for news, etc., few if any interviews with nervous family, etc., few if any pictures at night, like coverage of the mine cave-in in Pa. a few years ago did?
And the owner denies they were doing retreat mining, but if they were, isn't retreat mining done by standing between the pillars to be removed and the opening of the mine, so that when the pillars are removed and maybe the ceiling caves in, the miners are on the open side of the cave-in, and can just take the train out, or walk?
Pretty much obviously, no you don't remove pillars between yourself and the portal and yes, the plan is for any "controlled" falls to be away from the entrance/exit side. In general, the idea is not for the roof falling immediately at all, but eventually it may. Of course, sometimes things don't always go as planned.
For media access, I suspect most of that has to do w/ relative location to media locations and population being both much closer to population areas and larger population in the east as compared to UT combined w/ differences between eastern and western US (outside of the coastal urban areas) attitudes...
From what I've seen reported it's not really clear what operation this crew was actually doing during that shift. Murray says they weren't pillaring, but it seems clear that pillaring was/is at least part of the mine's overall operations. It may be that this particular crew and shift wasn't actually pillaring so technically he's right.
It's also not at all clear how far in the ceiling fall is from the portal and how far from the working face it is. It makes me wonder if they weren't perhaps roof-bolting at the time, not actually mining given the sled found near/under the debris so far by the recovery/rescue crews, but that's supposition in large part. But it doesn't seem to correlate w/ pillaring operations for them to have been where they seem to have been if they were actively engaged in retreat pillaring mining.
Of course, this could all be shown to be a completely wrong set of deductions if they were to happen to show a plan of the mine and where the fall is located, etc., today. So far, for some reason, I've seen no actual mine maps, etc., only "artist's rendition" kinds of drawings so can't tell for sure...
Simply observations based on what I have seen and what I learned of mining do service support on ashmeters, one of which happens to be only a few miles from Crandall Canyon...
The main thing I learned is its a rough/tough way to make a living...
From what I've read the collapse wasn't a cave-in, it was a bounce (commonly called a heave), e.g. the floor came up to meet the ceiling. Bounces can be predicted with some accuracy but the technical staff has to be working the problem and communicating with the miners. There may not be a "safe" exit because of the mechanics of the situation.
I've talked with a miner that experienced a bounce and it destroyed the equipment (the load cylinders for lack of a technical name) which is intended to provide structural support on a long-wall machine. Pretty scary is an understatement.
From what I seen of the podium and the bored Newsies talking to each other, it seems as though there are plenty there. I think the reason for lack of media access to the families is basically the families not making themselves available and/or telling the media to get stuffed.
dpb wrote in news:f9sard$t0u$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.org:
I've been following the story and some of the earlier reports mentioned "heaving." A quick survey this morning shows the word "collapse" is frequently used so maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell.
The report of a mostly intact ceiling seen in the downhole video certainly doesn't preclude a cave-in or collapse in a different portion of the mine. The reported five and a half foot clear space with an intact ceiling does get a little suspicious if the original chamber had more clear space.
Privacy, but I was confused by something I heard when the first got the 8 inch drill through... They said there was not enough "light" for the camera to see past 15 feet. My immediate thought was, why in the hell are they NOT using infrared cameras? With IR they need no light and the warm bodies of the survivors would stand out like flametorch even across 500 feet of cold cave.
Of course, a fall certainly typically is relatively local in nature and if there were seismic activity of any kind there could be damage in many distant parts of the mine. The earliest reports I saw indicated USGS-monitored activity that was initially attributed (by the media apparently, not USGS) to be the precursor but has to the best of my knowledge now been determined to have been the result, not the cause. If that's what you heard, then I think I know what you heard. Of course, that Murray _wants_ it to have been seismically induced is understandable, but I'm thinking it will probably be shown not to have been in the end.
All, of course, is still yet TBD as to what the actual state is and root cause(s) was(were). From what I've seen of the pictures at the portal and so on, it looks like a seam depth of about 6-ft is pretty close guess so don't think the borehole camera shot showed anything grossly out of line of what was expected. As I noted in other posting, I've not been at the Crandall mine itself but another down the main canyon a several miles by road. I believe it is mining the same seam on a different canyon face and that's typical seam depth there.
It's not looking good for anything other than bad news in the end, though, unfortunately.
I first thought that the media may have discovered a conscience. Then I realized that would only happen sometime after the world ends. I suspect that you are correct.
Interesting...not on any footage I've seen, but I've not seen a lot, either, I'll grant. Been e-mailing a buddy in SLC on it, though, and asked him what he's heard in that regard...if I learn more real, I'll stick a short note in.
Because those who are experienced with the insensitivity and aggressiveness of the media would deliberately place the families AWAY from the media and bar access of the media to the families. The families are of course free to do as they wish, however I would not imagine talking to the media would be something they would feel like doing.
If a reported sneaked in to where the family members are, I would imagine the families would run that reporter off with a quickness! And the reporter would be lucky to escape without physical injury... (You would not believe the insensitive questions reporters ask in situations like this!)
Actually, I heard something like what he said late last night, midnight?, for the first time. They called it a bump, and maybe they said heave also.
NPR. They have almost everything archived, audio and often transcripts. This was the news. I don't think it is worth your trouble to look for it. I'm sure they and others will say it again.
On top of this, apparently some, maybe all of the miners may be illegals. Try to find the miners names. News articles I've scanned say that the names are out there but do not give them. Liberal media could be protecting them not wishing to add the complication of this to the tragedy.
Thats the way it should be out of respect for the family and their privacy. It really annoys me when I see these "reporters" poking a camera into someones face when their family members fate is unknown or as a body is being pulled out of the water.
The media has no business doing that to people. If they feel the need for crap and insensitive programming let them show a jerry springer rerun or something.
Well, at least one of the three major networks I saw aired pictures w/ names of five of the six (but apparently had no picture for the sixth) and only an empty frame for him. Their names were given under each as well as ages and hometown and numbers of immediate family members so that doesn't appear to be a rational explanation...
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