OT: Ethiopian 737 Max crash

From what is known so far, this crash yesterday sounds very similar to the Lion Air crash in Indonesia. Both were 737 Max aircraft that were only a few months old, both had altitude control problems shortly after takeoff and the pilots were in the process of returning to the airport.
OK, the first one I can understand to some extent, because these planes have a new system that can force the nose down to avoid a stall and if the system malfunctions, the pilots may not react properly, per Boeing the pilots were not told and trained that the system exists. But at the same time, all pilots are trained on what to do for runaway trim, which is what this is. Runaway trim is when the electric trim system on any play runs amok and forces the plane nose down or nose up. So after the Lion Air, the whole world knows about this potential problem, why did this just happen again? The pilot had 8000 hours, the co-pilot just 200. But flying this plane, you'd think they would know about this and be able to react properly. On the other hand, it's also shocking that Boeing designed this system into this new plane and it relies only on one angle of attack sensor. The plane can be flying normally, all other sensors indicate everything is normal, and because one AOA sensor is faulty, it points the plane towards the ground. You'd think it would check the other AOA sensor, other flight parameters, etc and then issue some kind of notice or warning to the pilots, not nose dive the plane on one faulty sensor. Of course we still don't know what really happened, but it sure looks like the same stupid thing all over again.
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On 3/11/2019 8:15 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Sounds like the pilot was busy changing the copilots diapers.
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Get off my lawn!


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On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 11:15:37 -0400, Grumpy Old White Guy

That would be 200 hours on type. Type being any 737.
Because the new 737 is SO similar to the outgoing model little time is spent in "transitional training" and the pilots of both Max planes that crashed likely were not aware of the 2 toggle switches and their function in over-riding the anti-stall "feature" of the new plane.
Until the issue is solved it should be MANDATORY that the ant-istall feature be on "over-ride" for all flights. The computer is a bit "headstrong" and it is virtually impossible for a pilot to "out-muscle" it when it is engaged. 2 have tried so far and died trying. Like the Airbus 320 it is a "fly by wire" plane from what I have read. The pilot tells the computer what he wants the plane to do,and the computer attempts to force the plane to do it. With anti-stall engaged on the Max, it points the nose down when it thinks it is approaching a stall. Either a faulty sensor (or circuit) or faulty logic is apparently convincing the computer it is approaching stall when it is not. Without over-riding the ant-stall it becomes a one-sided battle of wills.
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On 3/11/2019 12:27 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

I hope that is the fix. My brother in law worked as a test engineer at Boeing and I have visited their faculties myself. They do not release a new model until it is thoroughly tested. They also continue to test old models for problems that might develop.
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That’s what the investigation will find out. Likely it isnt actually possible to override the anti stall system and there is no way to just turn it off.

Clearly they couldn’t and there is very little possibility that the pilot wasn’t able to get involved because he had gone for a piss etc so soon after takeoff.

I doubt its as black and white as that.

That’s there on all modern heavys already.

Yeah, unlikely to be a coincidence and easy to see what happened from the FDR.
24FlightRadar does report some pretty unusual height variation before it actually crashed.
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On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 12:57:04 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:

re

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lly

.
That's BS. After the Lion Air crash it was clear how it worked and that it can be turned off with two switches. It's also the same procedure pilots would use for runaway trim on any plane, which they are supposed to be trained in. Also, while the computer can push the nose down, the pilots can immediately push it back up by using their trim buttons. That's what apparently produced the up and down flight path of Lion Air.

he pilot

Actually it is and Boeing admits it. Not only did they create a design tha t relies on just one sensor, they also didn't put any explanation of the new MCAS into the manuals, what it is, what it does, how to override it, etc.

Heavy? A 737 isn't a "heavy".

There is also an eyewitness that says the rear of the plane was on fire as it was coming down, but having people think they saw things in cases like this isn't unusual.
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On 3/11/2019 8:15 AM, trader_4 wrote:

snipped Of course we still don't know what really happened, but it sure looks

No, we don't know yet but I'd not fly on one until it is known and resolved.
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On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:04:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Quite a few of my company's customers are aerospace.
I've been thinking of getting a horse.
Cindy Hamilton
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On 03/11/2019 01:34 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Christopher Reeve...
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com posted for all of us...

A horse is a horse, of course, of course, And no one should talk to a horse of course. That is, of course, unless the horse, is the famous Mr. Ed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSsuohepbVk

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Tekkie

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On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:04:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Something new and interesting. John Nance, ABC's aviation expert was on this morning. He said that the ADSB flight data from the Ethiopian plane ended minutes BEFORE the crash. That's the streaming data that the planes send to ground sensors, which are used to track them. I had tried to look at the flight profile online and that's what I had seen, that the data just ends with the plane still at ~8,000 feet, but I wasn't sure it was correct, etc. Nance said it could indicate the crew was shutting down circuits, possibly because of smoke, fire, etc. There was an eyewitness that said the plane was on fire at the tail before it went down, but then that would not be the first time someone got it wrong on that either. Or I suppose the pilots could have been shutting down the wrong things, instead of following the run away trim procedure, if it was the same thing as Lion Air, which they knew about and were trained on. Biggest problem right now is those damn Ethiopians still haven't turned over the black boxes to anyone so that we can find out. That's quite amazing, but not unheard of. You have most of these planes grounded now, couple days after they recover the boxes and the AHs are sitting on them.
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