OT bank notification of debit card use, continued



Questions that you could, perhaps, ask the credit card company ? Duh Huh ... John T.
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On Fri, 05 May 2017 06:08:35 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

I will. Writing it about it here helps me organize my thoughts, prior to my assault on the great lump of clay, when I get back to the States. Lump of clay meaning nothing will change. I did find a banking forum by bankers for bankers, and one short thread rougly on this subject, about what was required by law.. Only two answers and the second was that there is no point to doing more than the law requires. Of course pleasing the customer might be a reason, but iiuc he didn't think so.
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On 5/4/2017 5:24 PM, Micky wrote:

I know. Call on me! Call on me!
When you use a debit card in a gas station they do no know how much you are going to pump. They put a hold on $XXX.xx in case you are going to fill up a truck or camper. Once the actual charge comes through, they adjust to the actual amount.

Yes, same deal. That is why it is not good to use a debit card for gas stations and car rentals. They can tie up your funds for a while.

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On 5/4/2017 9:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I had the same thing happen with a hotel, they reserve some amount of money in case you charge things to the room or steal the towels, whatever.
Of course, that was a credit card in my case. The pending charge disappeared after a few days.
nancy
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On Thu, 4 May 2017 22:04:48 -0400, Nancy Young

Serious questions:
Did the bank send you an email alert about the hold? (Well, do you have it set up for email alerts at all?)
Did the alert call it a hold or use the same words they use for an actual charge?
Did they send another email when the hold was lifted? Sending the first but not the second is like sending a letter, "Your baby has been kidnapped" and then never saying when your 2-month old child who can't walk to a telephone and can't use a telephone is released.
Did the bank send an alert about the final actual charge from the hotel?
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On 5/5/2017 5:46 AM, Micky wrote:

I tried the email thing once and it was just annoying so I turned off that option. Really I have no idea if they would have notified me of a block of credit on hold.
I knew this was common practice in some industries but I never noticed it in action before.

I only noticed the pending charge because I checked my statement for some other reason. I use a credit card so it doesn't overly concern me as I can dispute it later. If I used a debit card I'd be checking all the time because the money would disappear from my account if there was fraud.
Not a fan. Good thing you had enough cash in the account but maybe traveling is a good time to use credit cards.
nancy
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On 05/05/2017 8:09 AM, Nancy Young wrote: ...

+1
And, of course, the second rule is to have at _least_ two with sizable limits, "just in case"...
--



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On 5/5/17 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:

Especially if you are going to certain places. I have been going down to the FL Keys for 12 years and EVERY year I get my card stopped at least once. This is over 4 different cards during the year. If I call in and let them know, they say I don't need it w/in continental US and then I run afoul of the computer. Never have understood why the computer doesn't note that I go to the same place at the same time every year, but it doesn't.
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On 5/5/2017 12:00 PM, Kurt V. Ullman wrote:

I go on line and give the travel information but did have a problem one time.
I did have an episode last week though. I carry two Shell cards. One is a company card, the other personal. Stopped for gas and swiped the card and entered the zip code. Said it was incorrect. OK, maybe a typo, put it in again. Nope, third try refused it. Use a Visa instead. A hundred miles later, it clicked. I swiped the company card instead of my personal card, duh!
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On 5/5/2017 11:46 AM, dpb wrote:

Right? I see advice to carry just one card and I think You've never had your card not readable by some store? It's happened to me a couple of times, luckily I carry more than one type of card.
nancy
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snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net says...

Make sure they are different. Like a Master Card and Visa card. I have been in a place that would only take one kind.
I usually have several cards with me. Seems that each one gives different ammounts of cash back at different places. One will give 3 % at a drug store, another will give 3 % at a gas station, and one gives back 5 % at the choice stores of the month. Then there is the cards for each store that give cash back only at that store.
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On 5/5/2017 1:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I do carry three kinds. Overkill maybe but I'm covered.

After Costco switched to Visa and I also had to replace my Costco American Express, I took to carrying a cheat sheet (okay, tiny scrap of paper) to remind me what rewards were better in what type of store. It's gotten complicated. Nice problem to have.
nancy
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On Fri, 5 May 2017 09:09:33 -0400, Nancy Young

Well, the point is not to remind me of what I spent, but to know if someone is using my card-number. Not very likely, but that's why I do it. It also makes it easier to note what each charge is for because it almost always comes the day I spend the money, even when I'm in Europe. If I wait until the end of the month, I won't know what any of the charges are.
But now that I see there is little relationship between what they email me and what they charge me, to a great extent is worse than nothing. I guess the grocery stores get it right. And if anyone else were using the number, I'd know about it.

I asked BoAmerica once if I could dispute a debit card charge, and I'm not sure but I think I was told yes. But it may well vary by bank.
This is what one of the boa webpages says:
"How do I dispute a transaction on my ATM or debit card?
We recommend that you contact the merchant prior to calling us about a dispute as it's generally faster and simpler for you to attempt to resolve the question with the merchant directly before going through the dispute process. [I'm sure that's usually true.]
To dispute a debit card transaction, please call us at 877.366.1121."
Of course, this doesn't actually say you can get your money back. I wouldn't put it past them to have a dispute process where you can't win, or if you win you don't get your money back. I don't trust boa at all. Did you hear how they would reorder checks so that if a customer was going to be overdrawn, they'd put the big checks first, regardless of what order they came in on, so he'd run out of money on the first check or two and the maximum number would bounce.
Wells Fargo did the same thing. I consider it outright stealing. I think they paid a big fine but they should have gone to jail for a couple years.

I have two credit cards with me. I thought I decided to carry one of them, but it's still in my suitcase in my room. And today, a closed gas station woudln't take my card. Don't know why. I can't understand the language on the pump's screen, and the girl I got to help me didn't know enough English to translate. (She had had trouble too, at first and had asked me for help.)

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On 05/06/2017 4:57 PM, Micky wrote: ...

...
The big difference is that CC liability is limited by the FCBA (Fair Credit Billing Act) while debit card transactions are under EFTA (Electronic Funds Transfer Act) because it is a direct funds transfer, not a credit transaction.
The limitations of you liability under the two is quite different--
FCBA
Maximum liability for fraudulent transactions: $50. Report before fraudulent transaction occurs; $0
Many credit cards promise zero liability for all fraudulent transactions, but that's not required by law so they can renege or change the rules at their whim.
EFTA
Maximum liability for fraudulent transactions: UNLIMITED Reported before unauthorized transactions: $0 Reported within two days: $50 Reported within 60 days: $500 After 60 days: no protection. (IOW, they can get it all)
Most debit card issuers have signed agreement with VISA/MC who underwrite virtually all issued in the US to extend similar consumer protection to customers as with CCs. But, again, this is the issuer voluntarily agreeing to this; it is not required by law.
The biggest difference is what you're already experiencing except in spades--when a debit card transaction occurs, real _OR_ fraudulent, the money is gone from your account at that instant and it's up to somebody else to get it back or you're out.
OTOH, if you dispute a CC transaction before you've paid it, then you're not out anything out of pocket until the process is resolved.
In the former, you could be totally destitute overnight if somebody got access to the debit card and even if your ultimate liability is $0, you've got to go through a recovery process before the money is back in the account. Meanwhile, the account may have been drained and you've got other bills to pay and no money to pay with...the snowball effect can be disastrous.
I will not have a debit card...just too much risk that don't need to take when CCs are all around without the same issues.
--




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On 05/06/2017 7:55 PM, dpb wrote: ...

...
I don't know just how fast these "holds" actually get cleared; I would presume within minutes if not seconds after the transaction is actually completed the final billing transaction occurs.
Thus, even though your bank balance really does take such a "ding", it lasts only a very short time and so unless you're trying to do two transactions simultaneously, you never really notice.
OTOH, if somebody actually makes a fraudulent transaction, now they've either got the actual hard cash if it were an ATM withdrawal or the merchandise or whatever it was and the $$ are gone from your account not to return _UNTIL_ you make the complaint and go through the process.
If it is really fraud, the chances of them cooperating as BOA suggests you should do first is, of course, zero. Only in the case of you're dissatisfied with a purchase or the like does that ever come into play; probably the least likely occurrence in the real world with gas pump skimmers and all the other nefarious ways to compromise your security.
Glad to have cheered your day... :)
--


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I tried to call the local gasoline company today, to learn about their end of things (The gas station guy gave me their number, told me to call them, and he's right.) but I couldn't get the phone to work. My landlady/roommate told me it's a toll-free number but it's one can't call from a cell phone!!!! So tomorrow I'll use her home phone.

For that, they'd need the actual card. Which indeed I could lose, but they'd also need the PIN (which is memorized and not written on the card.)

This is btw, why I want those email alerts, not to read about my purchases but about whoever that guy is who's spending my money.

Good point. I think I was carried away with the fact that in this case, it wasn't fraud and the merchant ... well he didn't have a good explanation since he could barely speak English, but he pointed me to one.

Yes, the bank is mostly just saying "Go away, kid. You bother me."
But it's not because of the bank that I went first to the gas station. I wanted to hear from him first. Glad I did.

And I appreciate it. I'm going to send your original letter to my niece and nephew for their birthdays.
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On 5/7/2017 4:04 PM, Micky wrote:

For cash you need the PIN, but you can use it as a credit card to buy merchandise. Under $50 or so you don't even sign for it.
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I have to read this in more detail, but assuming it convinces me to stop using the debit card, doesn't that mean I should also stop carrying it? OTOH, of course if I lose my wallet I'll notice that pretty quickly, so maybe the danger with the DebitCard is that it will be skimmed and the numbers known**. So that would mean not using it is enough.
**Does skimming get the expiration date and the 3-number code on the back? If not, how do they use it?

But it seems the result will be the same in the long run. If I lose the dispute or fail to dispute it, I'll lose the money, debit or credit. And if I win the dispute, I'll either retain the money or get it back, and those two are close enough to each other that I'd be happy either way.

Someone with all his money in the debit account could be, but even now that I've started keeping more money there, it's never over 4000. Except during this trip when it is up to 7000^^^. If they were to, temporarily, get the whole 7000, I'd be very unhappy, but I still have two credit cards to live on (except I think the charges for cash advances are very high. ??? But I guess I would have to do it. Yes, that's the reason I use the debit card, because the only charge for cash from the ATM is ....see below***
^^^From which is paid my supplemental health insurance, storage unit, phone, electricity, etc., at least 1200 of bills (for 3 months) back in the states, But I put more in than I'll need, just in case.
To use a credit card for this, I'd have to take out a cash advance on the CC for all the cash I expect to need for the whole trip, (or bring all that cash with me). Or I can get less, but do it several times. My recollectiion is that there's an initial charge for borrowing the money that would make doing it several times substantially more expensive.
So I'm going to predict that you will say to get cash from ATMs *at a bank^^, as opposed to a gas station etc.* with the debit card and use the credit card for everything else?????? Am I right about that?
^^On the theory that a bank's ATM won't skim my card
** well it may be mrore that the 1% I said in another post, because I didn't consider that they might use a penalizing exchange rate, or a good exchange rate and just not tell me what the local bank charges for handing out the money. They should charge something. They're not even my bank.! )

One of the advantages of being thrifty all my life (and not having a wife or children, and not having great economic losses) is that I'm very far from this situation. I calculated roughtly that I have enough money (though conceivably not enough interest or energy) to take 11 week vacations like this every year.^^^^. (When I was working full time, of coursse I couldnt' take vacations over 2 weeks, but I'm 70 y.o. now and in great health except overweight and back hurts sometimes.) But even this trip is cheap by, for example, my brother's standards. He's still working, and makes a lot more money than I did. For me, this trip was under 1000 for the air fare, 1600 for the car, 2200 for the rented room^^^, maybe 500 for gasoline , 220 for the phone (plus 18 for 3 months of a skype number**** and an undeteterminable amount for restaurants and grocery food to eat at "home" (and in the car.) . So that's 5550 plus food for 11 weeks. .
^^^And there were cheaper rooms. I should have started serious looking 6 weeks in advance. Instead it was 4.5. I wrote 4 emails to craigslist people, 3 replied, one could handle only parts of the time I wanted, one was never going to be there, and at 3.4 weeks I panicked and took the one that was expensive. I should have started earlier or sent more emails, though there were not, for example, 10 good choices. Maybe 6 or 7, but new ones every couple days.
^^^^It's hard to calculate how much it will eat into my savings and how much that will decrease the income on my savings. Compound interest in reverse. And how long I will live and if I'll be very sick for a while, need nursing care or nursing home. I guess I should look into long-term care insurance to take some (or could it be all?) of the uncertainty out of that expense.
**** I only mention Skype because it was a really good investment if you have people to give the number to who might call you. But what is interesting is that Verizon dumped its email on AOL, which I think it owns, and it expected me to reregister and confirm my identity with a phone number, and it only gave 10 spaces for numbers. No way online for it to call a foreign number. But the Skype number worked fine (for a phone call. First I tried twice to get them to text me. Later I saw that Skype on the PC won't accept texts, but the phone is supposed to. The phone has Skype that also rings when I get a call, but the texts never showed up. But like I say, the phone call worked.

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On 05/07/2017 2:54 PM, Micky wrote: ...

AIUI, the skimming device clones the card data and records your keystrokes so for them "Yes, Virginia, there _is_ a Santa Claus!" if your happen to be the lucky one. Of course, on that end, the CC is no different as being compromised, it's just the difference it consumer protection rules and how the two physically work that is different.
I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else to do anything; only point out what is/isn't actually the liability limit by law as opposed to your issuer's policy which can be changed at their will so I consider those of much less value than what is actually set in statute.
I'd expect most cards that are lost are actually mislaid by themselves, not as the complete wallet by some distraction or other mishap during the process of being used. If that were to occur, the two-day thing might not be all that long altho I'll grant 60 days surely ought to not be difficult to manage; again, though, just pointing out that the limits established by statute are different. ...

...
I'm apparently at least a couple years ahead of you and I've not used an ATM in my life and expect to meet my maker in that virgin state--I've just never had desperately needed cash-in-hand...of course, in normal business all farm transactions are on account for everything I buy so I don't have any need for cash except for the mornings I make it to the donut shop for coffee klatch... :)
A prime reason besides the above limits/that they are debit factors is that I simply don't want to have to remember a PIN. When the local bank didn't want to convert the DB to CC for the convenience, I had it canceled and have never looked back. That was 15+ year ago...
I've not dealt with an extended overseas stay; the several times for work were only a couple weeks at a time. That by now has been almost 20 year ago now as Dad passed the week we got back from the last and we came back to the farm following that and I quit the consulting gig after finishing up the last 18-months or so of backlog. Back then, you dealt with it with traveler's checks; I suppose they're now about as common as the dodo bird, too.
I'd have trouble with the parking lot as well as I don't have a smart mobile device that would work with their app, 3G reception or not...
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Not just the lots but the on-street parking too, on the commercial streets and sometimes elsewhere. But I've decided that even if the parking were free, it's easier to turn on to a side street and drive until there's a parking place than it is to find a parking place on one of the busy commercial streets.
There are also 3 more icons representing places to use the app but I don't remember what they are.
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