Do a search for rail car derailments that spill petroleum products including fuel oil and you find a big collection too, spanning the last
5 years as these stories do.
Dp a search for oil pipeline breaks/leaks and you can find several of those too.
This is LIFE, SH?T happens from time to time, and there are NO guarantees for ANYTHING.
Heating water with oil is not problem free. Equipment must be maintained and inspected. Leaks must be dealt with, leaks that can contaminate the land to the point that the property may not ever be sold, except to the town, and at a BIG loss. Spot shortages can develop due to several factors, and yes, diesel fuel is a backup.
either, and I
Unreliable gas service, in my opinion is MUCH more likely to exist in OLD neighborhoods where the piping has been underground for a long time, access to the piping is difficult and expensive due to roads and buildings built over the distribution lines after the piping was installed.
In a new development, by definition, everything is new. Only ongoing construction in the area is a risk, but even then the construction crews KNOW where the gas lines are buried. Spotty or unreliable gas service is unlikely.
I suggest that the majority of gas service interruptions are caused by work crews who dig where they are not supposed to, and water lines that are too close to the frost line.
And the question for you is, would you opt for a water to water geothermal heat pump for radiant heat, or would you go with forced air? What drives your decision in this case?
I am not going to try to convince you that nat gas is safe and reliable in residential use as you are clearly so frightened by the risks that you will go to almost any lengths to avoid using natural gas.
As it stands presently in Texas with the electricity and natural gas prices we have now, geothermal heat pumps make enormous financial sense as they are 4-5X more efficient than electric resistance heat, and in dual speed compressor models, run at EERs above 20 in low speed and at EERs of 15-17 in high speed. A properly sized geothermal heat pump would rarely run at high speed in the winter in south texas, and would run in high speed mode only when outdoor temps exceed 90-95F in a properly insulated and sealed home. OK, they are NOT cheap to install as the wells or ground loops are very expensive to install.
and bothered
up for that
the gas utility
distribution
TXU and "choice"
"choice" but a very
require tanks,
And MOST of us with gas service have NEVER had a gas service interruption in many many decades of service. We just don't worry about it, we don't worry about the need for a backup.
Well there is the environmental cleanup issue with the soil that is contaminated. Any such leak to the soil ANYWHERE on your property, if detected by others MAY make the property UNSALEABLE!!!
One contractor here in Houston TX recently completed a project for a RESIDENCE that used SIXTY FIVE wells, 300 feet deep. The contractor sizes the project at one well per ton of installed capacity so this was
65 tons of HVAC. Considering that most of us can get by with a ground source heat pump in the 3 ton to 6 ton range, one wonders just how big this house is.
The contractor has a 3000sq ft house deep inside the city limits and uses geothermal himself. Lot sizes are small so clearance to neighbor's property line is only a few feet in many cases. One of the wells for his house is under the slab!! He keeps the house at 65F year round and has cooling bills of under $175 Heat in Houston is just not a big concern as there are so few days a year that the temps fall below 40F and almost never get below 25F. What we worry about is keeping cool.
Also, the same nat gas that is flared off at production sites is being used, at least in part, to generate onsite power. I remember seeing a TV program that showed how they were doing it. The problem with getting this energy from remote locations is that there is no economic way to transport it, which is why much of it is flared off.
But what does any of this have to do with nat gas heat being unsafe, unreliable, unclean, etc?
Funny isn't it how any incidents involving oil just get dismissed, while anything bad that happens with nat gas gets carefully logged as a matter of great significance?
In addition to the story of outside tanks leaking and causing big problems, every so often I see news reports of the old wrong delivery address incident. This happened again last winter on Long Island, NY. The oil company delivered oil to the wrong address. Turns out where they delivered it the home once had oil heat, removed the basement tank, but did not remove the fill tube. So, they pumped a couple hundred gallons of oil into the wrong home's basement. On TV they showed the huge cleanup underway, the family was forced to leave the home for an indefinite period until the house was declared safe again, etc.
Now, this can be traced to stupidity. I wouldn't say it makes oil unsafe, or a bad choice, depending on the other options available, etc. But the difference is, I see this and put it in perspective. While Pete sees anything go wrong with nat gas, and it's suddenly a big issue, blown out of proportion, while oil gets a free pass.
Sorry, should have said a *propane* tank. I'm sorry that I confused you, although I'm not sure why you think refrigeration and liquification facilities would be needed for a natural gas tank. ???
house air. It's
to be made up from
with lots of weather
the natural gas furnace
it brings directly
Basements are not sealed from houses.
The difference is that all oil furnaces dump a lot of heat up the chimney. Condensing furnaces do not, and they just don't exist for oil since it is a much dirtier burning fuel.
Yeah, it's just happening all over. Gosh why haven't the insurance companies figured out that natural gas heated houses burn down so much more? Why aren't they as enlightened as you?
either, and I
I live in a suburban/rural area and I have gas. "Not reliable" to you is never having an outage in *DECADES* to me.
that's the way
Huh? Shelter with a hundred other people? Sorry dude, never happened. No outages either.
lower than 17%,
Uh huh. So your point?
Maybe we'll find
Yeah, since pipes need replacing like every year I guess, and they always do that maintenance in the middle of the winter, that's a real concern!
electric heat for a
good to know that
environmental clean up
No an explosion or fire of any type would be a disaster.
Those are home pages. There is nothing on those home pages that support your claims. So you don't even read the pages you say proves your claim.
show us the numbers or is
you find them on?
Oh, I'm sure you have all of those sites on natural gas deaths versus oil deaths all bookmarked. I really am.
was killed in this case,
dirty flue pipe.
Ok.
is tiny compared to
North America, not hostile
(exported 24.19 cubic
those ratios.
of energy, as total gas
Oil imports were 13.15 million
barrel of oil contains about
Are you serious? Earlier you just made the claim to wit, "So importing something like 18% nat. gas vs. 50% oil." I give you the ACTUAL figures and now you say, oh that's "not really a valid comparison."
You'd make a helluva football official. Keep moving those goal markers around until your guys could a ball in the endzone. Or just keep changing your mind about what you are asking.
US Oil production 2.77 Billion barrels per year US Net Oil imports 4.412 Billion barrels per yeyar
US Nat Gas production 539 billion cubic meters per year US Nat Gas net imports 89.91 billion cubic meters per year
on our foreign policy and
spare no expense to keep the
Embargo? If the USA was so dependent on middle east oil, it could get the hell out of the Persian golf. Instead we make pals with our "friends" the Saudis, sail nuclear carriers up and down the persian golf, and spend much of our foreign policy trying to "stabilize" that minefield as much as possible.
Oh ok.. The "whole islamic world," right?
Yeah just blame it on the Brits running around almost a hundred years ago. US oil dependence TODAY has nothing to do with our foreign policy expenditures in the region. No siree bob.
my existing fuel?
Plus, it is also
efficient condensing furnaces
condensing application, all the
favored to be gas because it
agencies are even starting to
less emissions than #2 oil
The cleanest oil or sweet light crude comes from the Middle East.
mean that an oil burner
oil leak causing heavy fumes
soon, and the last I heard
And what is the Sales Tax in Texas again?
What does the big dig have to do with an abandoned house due to an oil heating system? Please explain your fancy comparison.
for my natural gas
argument is opposing electric
hot water heater, gas
very efficient furnace
non usage charges (similar
efficiency. Besides even in
there is a good chance I'm
"service charges" during
heating the HOUSE.
Irrelevant to the comments about "service charges" which is what I was directly responding to. Another non-sequitur.
those climates.
Uh huh.
yours, please show the numbers.
Well? Can you show any information at all or do you just make your stuff up??
storm drains, which often have
Yeah that just explains why there isn't any gas service in "the northeast." Sure. I'll bet that ledge you complain of only affects gas lines too. Good thing there is no sewers, water service, underground utilities, etc. "in the northeast."
some other area in
"proove" the opposite,
gas is so expensive that
trucks with people driving them
Oh who can afford to blast through all that ledge to build their leach field "in the northeast?"
always more expensive in
it is possible you might
includes sewer pipe (which is
newer subdivisions, etc.
So what? Doesn't make oil a better fuel than gas, which is what your only thesis is.
hear a lot of advertising
oil heat" and how hot it is,
other oil dealers, but an
You mean like the interstate Dairly Compact, a sort of OPEC for milk? No, no collusion at all, sir. No gambling in this casino either.
My home here in Nova Scotia is heated with oil. The boiler when I purchased this home four years ago was then thirty-four years old (so too the separate oil-fired hot water tank) and I suspect neither were all that efficient. If natural gas were available, I would have switched immediately, without a second thought. Since that wasn't an option, I installed a high-efficiency oil-fired Slant Fin boiler, a SuperStor Ultra indirect hot water tank and a Tekmar boiler control system. I chose this particular boiler because it can be easily converted to natural gas when that happy day comes (it's certified to operate on either fuel).
Last year, with the addition of a small ductless heat pump, I was able to cut my fuel oil consumption by more than half (from 1,973 litres to
828 litres). Of the remaining 828 litres, I'm guessing roughly 500 litres or so are related to domestic hot water production (an average of 1.4 l/day x 365 days/yr). Given the relatively modest space heating demand, if I had to do it all over again I would have installed an electric boiler as a backup to the heat pump and eliminated oil altogether. With heating oil and electricity here in Nova Scotia running at about par, there would be little or no economic penalty to going with electric and I could eliminate the need to store fuel oil on my property.
I should add that the previous homeowners used 5,700 litres of heating oil in the year prior to my purchase (and that happened to be a fairly mild winter). By upgrading the heating and DHW systems, careful air sealing, window and door replacement and adding more insulation (e.g., the attic went from R6 to R60 and the walls from R6 to R22), I was able to reduce my fuel oil consumption by 65 per cent. With the ductless heat pump, I've been able to cut that by more than half again. At current prices, I'm now saving over $4,000.00 a year on my heating and DHW costs.
Nothing. I never said anything about unclean, just notably less safe and reliable than oil. Burning the "raw" gas from a well will indeed be far less clean than burning the refined gas supplied by a utility though.
Just as a plane crash that kills four people halfway across the country makes the news, but in your state today and most every day, that many people are killed in auto accidents. and it is rarely mentioned. Gas explosions are really rare, but oil leaks just don't make the news. They are not "crown pleasers" like the more rare happenings.
A fellow I work with had the tubing from tank to heater broken and about 20 gallons spilled. Cause was trace to stupidity of one of his kids. Cost of cleanup was about $8000. Never made the news.
Pete has posted some good information on this newsgroup and is a very knowledgeable person. He also seems to have an un-natural fear of gas though. I respect his opinions and ability, but on this subject he is over reacting against gas.
Rail derailments and pipeline ruptures do not happen in my basement or threaten to kill me. Not a good comparison.
I never said it was problem free, indeed I indicated that both oil and gas burners require annual service. Oil is safer and more reliable than gas. However low the incident probability is overall the probability is lower for oil than gas.
either, and I
That certainly is a factor. Remember that apartment building in I think NJ that was cut in half by a pipeline explosion under it perhaps 8 years ago?
For now. Give it some years and it will become unreliable. Oil service does not have that built in degradation.
Many are, others are the delayed result of improper pipeline installation or damage to the pipeline during installation. I hear of one pipeline rupture on a high pressure pipeline that was traced to a slight nick on the pipe from a backhoe tooth. It did just fine for a number of years before finally failing in the middle of winter.
But again, none of those problems affect oil service. A crew digging down the street or a water main break down the street will not affect the oil supply in your basement.
figured out that natural gas heated houses burn down so much more? Why aren't they as enlightened as you?
Because the total number is low enough not to bother them. That does not in any way invalidate the relative difference in safety between oil and gas.
either, and I
never having an outage in *DECADES* to me.
Different areas have different reliability. If your gas lines were installed fairly recently or your gas company is particularly good about replacing older lines you're lucky. Not everyone has such luck.
connected to a
that's the way
long time with
outages either.
Never happened to you perhaps. I most certainly did happen to people near me.
lower than 17%,
The point was noting the relative impracticality of providing backup for unreliable gas service.
Maybe we'll find
that maintenance in the middle of the winter, that's a real concern!
The outages aren't often related to maintenance, they are typically unscheduled emergency events. You do bring up the additional point that even scheduled maintenance can cause gas outages though you at least get a few days warning.
electric heat for a
good to know that
environmental clean up
Right, but that has no bearing on the multi day gas outage I referenced. The houses were temporarily uninhabitable because the gas service failed and there was no backup for it. No idea how much damage from frozen pipes also resulted, probably a good amount since not many people know how to drain the pipes before leaving.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.