Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs

You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who can't? Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready with another nozzle when it craps out?

And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class too? Or just use gas and avoid all this?

And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more.

I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections, while an oil furnace cannot.

You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though. Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of magnitude more prone to outage?

Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from

10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see, what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?

When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas.

BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can put it out.

Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc?

You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can charge,. just like the water company.

Reply to
trader4
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The typical homeowner *should* be able to do it, however we have as a whole lost more and more skills over the years. It used to be that the bulk of people changed the oil in their cars themselves, now most don't even know how to open the hood, much less check the oil.

If you're having an annual service done they get replaced well before they would crap out unless you are buying the low grade, nearly crude fuel oil they run cargo ships on. With most any #2 fuel oil the nozzles and filters can easily last several years without failure so annual replacement keeps them well within their life expectancy.

I'm suggesting that the typical homeowner should have at least *some* knowledge of those hulking monsters in their basement, not total ignorance. If you want to be ignorant you should be a renter.

Using gas avoids nothing at all and indeed using gas can allow your ignorance to kill you if you don't have annual inspections. You can just as readily run an oil burner for years without inspections or service, but in either case, oil or gas, the inspections are necessary for safety.

I once saw a gas water heater that had the chimney connection completely fall apart. The homeowner had not noticed it at all while it was pumping out CO, where if it had been oil fired they would have noticed it in minutes. They were lucky that it was in a service closet off the garage and fairly well isolated from the house or they could well have been killed by CO.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

A cracked heat exchanger on a gas furnace is far more likely to go unnoticed than a cracked heat exchanged on an oil furnace due to the far more noticeable fumes from an oil burner. Both can pump out CO which can kill you, but the oil burner has the added safety of being readily detected. It's the same concept as the odorant they have to add to gas so you can detect a leak.

Oil furnaces are also less likely to have a cracked heat exchange since they are generally built more ruggedly than their gas counterparts, though you can of course find both crap and very high quality in both types.

I'd say you are absolutely incorrect. I know of several examples of oil furnaces that have gone that length of time or longer with no issues and these include some pretty old units.

As I said the annual inspection is primarily for safety, not out of need for service. The service is done as a preventative measure since the parts replaced are very inexpensive and the tech is on-site anyway.

First off, it is not "dream land", you can check the news archives to see the frequency of gas outages in most areas. Second off, *I* have backup for the electricity so it is not an issue for me. With oil I have backup for heat and hot water as well.

Diesel generator. Share the fuel supply with the nice safe reliable oil furnace. #2 fuel oil and #2 diesel are exactly the same, the only difference is transportation fuel taxes and a generator is not a transportation use.

I had a near 72 hour outage during a winter ice storm in the northeast a few years back. I ran on my diesel generator the whole time and went about my life normally while people around me had freezing pipes and freezing butts. At least their food didn't spoil since it was cold.

Hurricane areas, ice storm / snow areas, tornado areas, flood areas, basically almost every area. Since power plants are few and far between relative to consumers, a problem a good distance away can leave you without power even if everything else is ok locally.

I heard of dozens of gas outages in my immediate area over the years when I had not a single oil outage. As I noted, I am well prepared for an electric outage, with gas you don't have the option of being prepared for a gas outage.

Politics pure and simple. Large gas monopolies have more lobbyists than the smaller competitive oil dealers. The big energy companies don't care much either way since they sell both NG and oil.

Regulated means little. The fact remains that the gas monopolies are allowed to charge you even when you are not using any of their product, which is not the case with oil. That and the other problems with gas provide solid reasons *not* to use gas.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

In misc.consumers.house snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

But when natural gas does go out, its a big pain in the rear. Its out for longer and requires someone to come inside your home to get it turned back on.

I have a generator. I don't have a transfer switch but I have my furnace on a twist lock plug I can plug into an alternate outlet powered by my generator. I also have generator powered plugs near my fridge and sump pump. Fuel supply maintenance means dumping the generator gas cans in the cars twice a year and filling the cans again. I found that the generator didn't do any good powering the furnace when the gas was out.

I live in MA. A few months after moving into my house I called the gas company (Keyspan) to report an outage. I was rudely told "the gas company doesn't have outages, you want to call the electric company because your power must be out." I informed them I was talking to them on a cordless phone, I was well aware that my lights were on and I'd like to speak to a supervisor. I was finally told someone would arrive between 8am and 4pm and I had to be home because they wouldn't touch anything without me being home. Two calls later and a guy shows up at 6:30pm thinking my gas valve had been shut off and padlocked for non-payment. Even with the help of someone back in the office he couldn't locate the street side shutoff to see if someone had shut it off. After 20 minutes he finally unscrewed my meter from the house and got nothing. He unscrewed the street side and got blasted by high pressure gas. He used the house side shutoff valve just before the meter and then replaced the meter. He then came into my house and lit the pilot light on the furnace and water heater because I was obviously too incompetent to light them although I had to tell him how to light the furnace because he couldn't follow the little stick diagram. He also had to verify that my dryer and stove were electronic ignition because I was obviously too incompetent to know that either. I wasn't too impressed.

Last winter a large section of a town in eastern MA (Lexington, Concord, or Acton I think) lost gas for 3-4 days of single digit temperatures. Lots of people had to drain their pipes as best they could as they were forced to evacuate their homes.

Luckily I haven't had any gas issues in the last 5 years and I now have a wood stove that will keep the important rooms of the house 60 degrees warmer than the outside temperature.

Reply to
someone

Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.

Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil:(

Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based on age of tank.

Reply to
hallerb

That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get "tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty / leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source.

This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue. Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two.

And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction, just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable. Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far cry from the old burners as well.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Pete. let me summarize for you:

1 - I've lived in homes with both oil heat and nat gas heat. In over 40 years experience, I've found nat gas to be consistently more reliable. I've never had to make a single call for service where a natural gas furnace stopped working. On the other hand, I have made many emergency sevice calls for oil heat due to clogged nozzles and failed pumps.

2 - In 40 years, I have never had nat gas service go out. I'd like to know where you live that you think nat gas is so unreliable and what exactly makes that nat gas system unreliable. IMO, for just about all, the very small chance of losing nat gas service pales in comparison to electric outages that most of us routinely live with.

3 - Most people do not have backup generators, which come with their own set of new problems. And they obviously have made the judgement that their needs, probablilities, etc don't justify having one.

4 - As to the risk of dying from carbon monoxide from nat gas, vs oil heat, here is some data:

How great is the risk of carbon monoxide in my home from natural gas?

attributed to natural gas (out of 56,000 total carbon monoxide-related deaths). This is an average of 50 deaths per year. You are more likely to die from a lightning strike (approximately 80 deaths per year).

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130 people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning in the US 2001 ((US Consumer Product Safety Commission, National Electronic Injury Surveillance System, 2003) Estimated 58% (75) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning caused by heating systems in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety) Estimated 36.4% (28) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning caused by natural gas heating systems in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety)

So, of the whopping 130 people who die each year from non-fire CO, 75 are caused by all heating systems, and of those 28 are attributable to a natural gas system. That should put to rest the notion that natural gas systems are more prone to CO problems. Compare this to the 50K people killed on our roads each year to put it in perspective.

5 - If nat gas were unsafe compared to other heating system, insurance companies would charge higher rates or not insure buildings that use it, yet this is not an issue. 6 - Your suggestion that most homeowners should know how to change nozzles in a furnace that stops working in the middle of the night is bizarre for 2 reasons. First, clearly most homeowners do not have that level of experience and knowledge. Second, it's very strange for someone so concerned about the safety of nat gas vs oil to be recommending that most homeowners start fooling around with their own oil burner. IMO, that is far more likely to result in injury or a fire than having a nat gas furnace ever would. 7 - People can make their own choices based on their needs and priorities. But to suggest that nat gas is unsafe or unreliable compared to oil heat is bogus.
Reply to
trader4

Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot, but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........

Reply to
Robert Gammon

And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come heating season, the CO killed them.

Reply to
trader4

Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors.

Reply to
Martik

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved.

Reply to
Todd H.

Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof.

Reply to
Robert Gammon

Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would shut off the gas?

Reply to
Martik

Note that what you just mentioned re: pilots and igniters relates to gas explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO.

CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due to:

1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming. 2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas.

People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil stove or dryer?).

When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions, gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source unlike gas leaks.

And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or

  1. Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Again the fact that oil combustion products other than CO are far more human detectable than those of gas means that that incident may not have resulted in deaths had it been an oil furnace. The nasty building fumes would have very likely driven the occupants out before a lethal CO exposure could occur.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.

Reply to
Robert Gammon

There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not generally used. The much more common CO detector would detect such conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give false alarms.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

And i think that the biggest single risk with gas furnaces is the lack of annual inspections. The heat exchanger walls rust thru, then combustion products fill the house, and CO death results. I expect that THIS is the SINGLE largest cause of gas heat deaths in the US. Worker leaving a rag in the flue is a very low probability event.

The issue for lots of folks is that replacing the furnace is the solution to a heat exchanger leak and that is HORRIBLY expensive. Many simply do not have the money to make it happen, so they die of CO poisoning.

My parents had an oil burner most of their lives. I remember the smell.

Natural gas or Propane for me.

Reply to
Robert Gammon

I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented thru PVC and a draft inducer fan. Would this furnace have a safety shutoff.

Reply to
Martik

I have never found any smell at all associated with either gas or oil

*inside* the living area with quality equipment. In the same service room with the furnace I can readily detect either gas (more specifically the odorant) or oil. If you smell it in the living area you have a problem that needs investigation and repair.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

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