In almost ALL communities where natural gas service is available, local codes do NOT permit the exhaust gas from the natural gas furnace to share a common flue with a fireplace, and such installations, in almost cases REQUIRE a cap.
Fireplace chimney is NOT the same as gas furnace chimney, DANGEROUS to put the two together.
In practice it is a 4 inch double walled galvanized metal pipe.
When we use the word chimney, it brings negative connotations of a brick lined rectangular box 24 ore more inches wide, 6 or more inches deep.
With a house that is tight, below 4 ACH, yes you need a separate pipe to bring in fresh combustion air. This pipe is usually PVC.
Pretty unlikely not to use gas for cooking, hot water and clothes drying year round.
Then there is that tank you have to buy and install and need to periodically replace.
There is no such thing
Maintenance is a lot more involved on an oil burner. You need to replace nozzles, oil filters and clean the flue passages. When I looked at our natural gas boiler after the first year there was no need to clean anything and there are no filter or nozzles to replace. This has been true for over 30 years. And since it doesn't need a high pressure pump to atomize fuel electricity costs are lower.
Nope, it RELIES on the fact the the exhaust vent AND the supply vent are UNOBSTRUCTED. Both vents MUST be inspected on a REGULAR basis to ensure that gas is free flowing thru BOTH of them.
Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the equation is an oligopoly. But clearly this whole argument against nat gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's not a major difference.
I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas interruption is a big concern. It obviously isn't for 95% of us who use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had electricity go out. And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key. An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole, all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is immune from. Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage thing is another red herring.
If oil is so much better, why do only 4% of new homes use oil heat?
Yeah, it;s like arguing the size of an ant to the size of a mosquito. Look at how many people actually die from a fall. It's orders of magnitude larger. Should we get rid of bathtubs and tile floors too?
That isn;t true, as gas furnaces generate CO2, which is the hottest environmental issue of the moment. But, oil generates not only that, but also NO, sulfur emissions, etc.
There is definitely some regional bias involved. Historically, the US east coast has used fuel oil for heat, so there tends to be a "this is how we've always done it, so it must be right" mentality going on.
20+ years ago, oil was substantially more expensive than natural gas. The east coast didn't have the supply infrastructure to distribute natural gas, so few could take advantage of that differential.With all the EPA restrictions on new power plants, utilities built gas fired plants which sucked up most of the surplus gas and drove natural gas prices up closer to fuel oil.
ConnocoPhillips has an interesting article with graphics that shows price differences over the past 5 years:
Who said anything about a fireplace chimney? There are a tremendous number of multi flue chimneys out there that do not have screen caps on any of the flues. Separate flues for fireplace and furnace.
Pete C.
Agree, maybe I should have said "monopolistic behavior". But they are all joined at the waist. My buddy works in an energy commodity business and says behind the scenes they are all in lock step with each other just as we see at the gas stations where "something may possibly happen somewhere" and they all raise their prices.
In the case of the major oil
Exactly, there are pros and cons and it is typicallu a wash.
You don't read well do you? I indicated that both are not very detectable when combustion adjustments are proper and neither produces much CO under those conditions either. It is when combustion adjustments are out of whack that a lot of CO is produced and it is also under those abnormal conditions that oil exhaust is much more detectable than gas exhaust.
Not for the reasons you apparently think.
Indeed they are. CO is not the only way a nat. gas heating system can kill you. Add in the number of deaths from gas explosions to the CO deaths and then compare to oil. Then compare the number of injuries from gas explosions to the number of injuries from oil explosions. Then tell me which is safer.
1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil. Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported from foreign sources. 2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe" in one gas suppliers advertising. Deceptive price comparisons that do not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern states where:
1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get low end gas systems to last longer. 2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and blast through. 3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply minimal gas. 4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down the road.Pete C.
Find me a single case of an oil explosion of a home oil furnace in the last 50 years.
It's not a small risk to the people who are killed in them or are lucky enough to just come home to a crater.
Anyone looking at the complete picture:
Oil *is* safer than gas.
Oil *is* more reliable than gas (on site fuel).
Oil *is* more competitive than gas (multiple suppliers).
Oil does *not* have service charges when you aren't using it.
Oil equipment *does* on average have a much longer service life than gas equipment.
Pete C.
I have a friend who only has gas heat. I noted to him the like $8/mo he's paying from about April - October for the zero gas he's using.
Tanks are cheap (at least indoor ones), and indoor ones do not require periodic replacement, nor do newly installed double wall underground tanks.
Maintenance is not "a lot more involved", replacing a $6 nozzle and $2 filter is pretty damn negligible and they really are only needed every few years. They are commonly done annually simply because they are so cheap. Cleaning isn't generally necessary annually either with a modern oil burner that is correctly adjusted as there is very little soot. Electricity costs to run the burner motor are quite negligible and both oil and gas systems need electricity for blower motors or circulator pumps.
Pete C.
First there is no such thing as "big oil", those are big *energy* companies that are involved in nat. gas as well. The producers all have similar costs so logically the products they produce have similar costs. It is not some sort of collusion.
Energy prices are also high at the moment due not only to the middle east nonsense, but also due to the significant losses and costs associated with rebuilding the offshore oil rigs and the refineries severely damaged by Katrina. These are real costs that have to be recovered.
I think many is more accurate, not "most". I know quite a few people who only use gas for heating.
I've found price differences of better than $0.20/gal during record cold winters when the overall price was around $0.85/gal. I consider that to be a significant difference. You nat. gas suppliers also have to buy from the same source.
You're lucky. I've had no oil outage in 36 years and others within about a 10 mile radius have had to go to shelters during a multi day gas outage in the winter.
Good grief! You actually believe that? Nat. gas is indeed a petroleum related product. Those gas flares you see off the side of oil rigs are nat. gas that has been separated from the oil.
Pete C.
Where can I fins statistics on this?
Bull Shit. I've run out of oil, I've NEVER run out of gas. When power goes out, oil is useless but if you have a gas stove, you can use the burners to cook. I've never experinenced a gas outage in 60 years.
Sure, you have Exxon, BP, Shell. Wow, what a great selection. Do the local dealers vary in price by more than a penny or two? Nope, they don't. One huge cartel.
If you cook with gas, you use it all the time. Same with hot water. Not much of an agrument there.
Really? I've not seen any big difference. Gas burners are pretty much maintenance free. Once in a while a thermocouple or valve will need replacing, sort of like an oil burner that needs a new motor, pump or nozzle at time. Mechanical things break. In all my years of gas service, I"ve only had two, maybe three service calls, but with oil, I must have $125 service and cleaning every year.
Do you happen to have ties to an oil dealer?
Right.
Completely false. This argument against nat. gas is based on facts about it's safety, reliability, cleanliness and the service life of the equipment. I have ignored price per BTU since that is constantly in flux.
Price is the only argument made in favor of nat. gas that has even short term validity. All other arguments in favor of nat. gas have been based on either myths, or comparisons of brand new gas equipment to 50yr old oil equipment.
And I've mentioned several times that I'm referring to the northeast. It's CT in particular where I lived for 36 years before moving a couple years ago.
Indeed I did as well and when it did I simply started my generator and went back about my normal business without more that a few minutes interruption.
You are ignoring the fact that it is possible and economical to provide backup for the electricity, something that is not possible with the gas. Additionally time to repair a damaged electric line is significantly less than time to repair a damaged gas line in most cases. You also don't have to spend additional time purging a repaired electric line before returning it to service as you do with a repaired gas line.
Tell that to the folks who lived within 10 miles of me that had to spend several days in a shelter due to a gas outage.
1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil. Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported from foreign sources. 2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe" in one gas suppliers advertising. Deceptive price comparisons that do not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern states where:
1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get low end gas systems to last longer. 2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and blast through. 3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply minimal gas. 4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down the road.Do we have viable alternatives to bathtubs and tile floors? When there is a viable alternative to a potentially dangerous item it is worthwhile to consider them.
In the case of bathtubs and tile floors however there are patches available such as non slip mats that can overcome their safety issues. Equivalent safety patches are not available for nat. gas though CO and explosive gas detectors do help.
Again safety is only one part of the argument against nat. gas.
Pete C.
Good question. There is a government site that I can't recall at the moment (CDC, HHHS, CPSC or something) that had a nice search able database where you could generate reports on reported injuries and deaths sorted all kinds of ways.
I'm afraid it's your bull shit. I've never run out of oil and anyone with half a brain knows to check the gauge on their tank from time to time.
When the power goes out oil is quite useful since #2 fuel out runs a diesel generator perfectly and can even be used in the pump camp stoves.
You're lucky to be in a reliable location, others are not so lucky. A large number of people within 10mi of where I was living had to spend several winter days in a shelter during a gas outage about 4 years ago.
There are a few others in the mix.
Yes, they do. I've regularly seen price differences that amount to 25% of the oil price and this included during a record cold winter price gouging season.
I know a number of people who only have gas for heat.
I said service life, you are indicating service costs and you are also wrong there as well.
On average oil equipment is built more ruggedly and has a longer service life than gas equipment. There are of course some real low end and real high end units in both lines, but the average oil units last longer.
As for service costs, both gas and oil equipment requires annual inspections for safety, both are capable of operating multiple years without requiring actual service. The service performed annually on oil equipment is not really required, but the cost for the parts is so low that it's cheap insurance to just replace them and it's often the case that people only call for service every few years at which point those items should be replaced anyway.
None whatsoever. I work for a bank, the only stock I have is United Technologies and at the moment since my last move I use neither oil or nat. gas.
I do have a dual-fuel range that uses propane for the cook top, but this is fed from a regular 20# BBQ type tank which lasts 8 months or more between changes and I have multiple vendors to choose from.
Pete C.
Exactly where is this spotty gas service that you speak of?
The basement air is sealed from the air upstairs?
Ok. What pages on these sites should we look at?
What is the number of deaths from natural gas versus oil? Can you show us the numbers or is this just a FUD campaign?
The amount and proportion of natural gas that is imported to the USA is tiny compared to oil. Much of the imported natural gas comes from right here in North America, not hostile areas of the world like the Middle East.
Which supplier are you talking about? What is the definition of "safe?"
Service charges? Like the $4/month minimum billing fee that I pay for my natural gas service? My electric company charges more than that so your argument is opposing electric service too. Even including that fee (which includes service for my hot water heater, gas grill, stove, and dryer) I'm still way ahead with gas, and I have a very efficient furnace too.
How so?
Huh? What is your source of this claim?
You said they are a monopoly. Why would they need to market? I hear a lot of advertising by oil dealers, or the collective oil dealers, operating as one.
What are your numbers for your cost comparison?
What is the efficiency rating (AFUE) for these "modern efficient oil furnaces?" My natural gas furnace is about 96% efficient (AFUE), meaning that about 96% of the energy in the gas becomes actual heat in my house. How does your "efficient oil furnace" compare?
How many explosions is "all the gas explosions?" Or people that awake to find their home and its contents are destroyed by oil or that their basement is now an oil spill site?
Cite? I know it is a lot more than that because a house near me had exactly that happen to it, and the house was condemned during the cleanup last year.
I'm suspicious of underground tanks for residential use. And who is doing all of the required monitoring? If the inner tank breaks, why can't the outer tank break too? If the outer tank is already corroded when the inner tank breaks, what good is it (or the monitoring system?)
Gas station tanks have caused enough horrors (at least 7 spill sites from leaking tanks in my town alone), and they supposedly are tightly regulated and inspected regularly. Recall that the MTBE fiasco is caused primarily from gasoline leaking from underground tanks!
Well just about every house around me has a perimeter drain. Prevents any concerns of water in the basement. I didn't realize that basement floors and walls were supposed to be petroleum spill containment systems.
Gas just doesn't blow up a house unless something goes really wrong, like a backhoe out front hitting a pipe. Even then the smell of the gas is pretty obvious before it reaches an explosive ratio with oxygen. In that case it doesn't matter if your particular house has gas service if the gas follows a water or sewer or electrical conduit into your basment instead of following the outside of a gas line.
But as you pointed out, CO for oil furnaces isn't a concern for you since you can just smell the dirtier oil furnace fumes.
About five years old. Fine, let's compare it with a four or even a brand new oil furnace. What AFUE rating
What oil furnaces can do 92%-96% AFUE?
It says that in all but two of the last 6 heating seasons, it has been CHEAPER to heat with Natural gas and in the two exception years, they were very very close to equal cost.
So the choice in heating systems is LARGELY dictated by where you live, NOT what costs more. Northeast states consume 70% of heating oil. Choices there are heating oil or electricity with minor contributions from other sources. But only 1/3 of residences there have oil heat. The rest of the country, its either gas (natural gas via pipleine, or propane in tanks on your property) or electricity.
Safety is not the issue, cost is not the issue, its what your neighbors use and what choices you have for heating fuel. To argue with someone in Pennsylvania or New York that natural gas is the fuel of choice is fool hardy. To argue with someone in Kansas that fuel oil is the fuel of choice is similarly fool hardy. Outside the northeast, the infrastructure to support fuel oil for heat is lacking. In the northeast, natural gas distribution is spotty at best.
So this discussion needs to STOP. Each person who is faced with a decision on a furnace will rely on personal experience, the advice of one or more HVAC contractors, the advice of friends and neighbors.. What we say here is heavily influenced by where we live and what we are used to. There is no single RIGHT answer that applies to everyone.
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