Need to replace Electric Baseboard Heating Units & Replacement Windows

[Mike]

Makes sense to me. Semantics

[Steve Scott]

We often come across units producing lethal levels of CO. The last one was last week. 2000ppm, not air free. Couldn't get the meter out of the vent quick enough. We replaced the unit.

I'll stand by my statement that normal levels are quite low for properly operating equipment. The sky's the limit otherwise.

Say what? Ken, did you even read what I posted? If so, you'll note that I said if it's UL approved it CAN'T even display levels below

70ppm.

Slow down there, buddy.

[Steve Scott]

You are aware that a non vented gas or propane can legally exhaust up to 800ppm of CO into a residence? Levels higher than that are not uncommon.

You're correct, spread>Not all propane appliances are vented. Cooking ranges, fireplaces, and

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

[Joe Fischer]

Catalytic propane radiant heaters are popular in large spaces, but I wouldn't use one in a home, and have never seen one used in a home.

I saw 3 UNVENTED natural gas heaters purchased to be installed in a home by an ex-gas company employee, and heard later that the tenants complained of the odor using them. I had a friend that used stove top burners to heat a couple of rooms upstairs in his parent's house, when I visited my eyes burned a lot.

People do use unvented heaters, and some are advertised as being safe to use in a home, but if there is a warning on the heater to use it ONLY in a well ventilated space, it is probably not safe to use in a home.

There has been a progression in the safety of natural gas space heaters, the first had no safety devices at all, then they had pilot lights with thermo- couples to not open the main valve if the pilot goes out, and both of mine also have an overheat Klixon in series with the thermocouple, and that makes it safer, but requires changing the thermocouple more often because of the resistance of the switch and wires, and the thermocouple produces less voltage after a few months of use.

I have no problem with using the gas space heaters, but I prefer not to have one running in a room I sleep in, even thought they are vented with

5 inch metal vent pipes into a tile lined masonry chimney.

Joe Fischer

[Joe Fischer]

All gas ranges have had unvented ovens and top burners for all time, and most people know enough to have the air adjusted if there is much red or orange or yellow flames. With pure blue flame they are considered safe, but it is assumed they are not used constantly.

Most of the unvented heaters are not very large, usually less than 20,000 BTU/hour.

My vented heaters are 75,000 and 35,000 BTU/hour, and Cozy also sells them with propane jets, but they are all vented.

Gas water heaters do kill people, but it usually takes both a blocked vent and an incorrect air setting to do that. All gas appliances must have a way to adjust the air induction, and if any red, yellow or orange flame is seen, have somebody that knows how adjust it.

But any over 20,000 BTU/hour should probably be vented, especially in rooms where people sleep. My heater instructions state how much of an opening is required for fresh air to enter.

Joe Fischer

[<kjpro]

Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal. You do know that years of experience doesn&#39;t qualify as QUALITY service?

Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No

Did I say they produce CO? Yes

Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes

What don&#39;t you understand?

[<kjpro]

It&#39;s all good. :-)

I just didn&#39;t want people to think those "piece of shit" CO detectors they purchase in chain stores are going to save their life.

It&#39;s sad that the good ones are not the ones in everyones home.

[nicksanspam]

Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations, and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc, even if it was below alarm level.

Nick

[nicksanspam]

I think you said OSHA. Did you mean UL? My UL-approved Nighthawk detector usually displays 0 ppm. Sometimes 9, sometimes 13, if I accidentally put some red hot woodstove ashes in the ash can...

Nick

[Steve Scott]

[Joe Fischer]

Tell that to the 50 million gas range users and the gas company service men that check them anytime the gas has been shut off and they won&#39;t turn the meter on until they can get in the house and check all the appliances.

But I turned the supply valve off to my 1959 Magic Chef, I simply don&#39;t want pilots on in an unvented stove, in fact I don&#39;t need a stove as long as the microwave works.

Joe Fischer

[<kjpro]

More BULLSHIT.

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

My Nighthawk is UL listed. CO is NOT a normal product of complete combustion. Catalytic heaters are extremely effective and are generally not vented.

The danger of oxygen depletion in a sealed room is significantly greater than the danger of CO poisoning from a catalytic heater.

Tests were done with a i lb propane bottle on a catalytic heater in a

100 cu ft sealed room. Run time was 6.5 hours. At the end of the test, oxygen had been depleted from 20.9% to 8.8%, and CO levels were 67-109ppm. Given a 6.5 hour exposure, the CO levels were deemed not to be a threat to a healthy adult, but the danger of hypoxia due to oxygen depletion was serious.

A reasonable air exchange would make this risk negligible, and would reduce the already "safe" CO level to about 1/100, (air exchange of aprox 13 cu ft per hour would reduce co by 30%, 26 cu ft/hr by 66%, etc)

[<kjpro]

I&#39;ll take my VENTED appliance... it leaves 0 parts of carbon monoxide in my home. :-)

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Untill a squirrel dies in the vent from co poisoning?

[Steve Scott]

So what&#39;s your point? There&#39;s no such thing as complete combustion in the real world unless you live in Nick&#39;s world. Therefore some CO is going into your home. My point is two fold.

First, CO is normal product of combustion. I&#39;d be glad to have you show me any data I can check myself showing fossil fuel combustion using off the shelf equipment the average person&#39;s going to have in their home that produces NO CO during the course of its normal operation.

Sec>>

[Steve Scott]

800 ppm - (air-free) Level of CO allowed inside oven flues by an American gas association (now ANSI) standard, # Z21.1. [this level is unchanged since 1921 when oven flues were still vented outdoors like woodstoves, instead of directly into the kitchen as they have since 1950s!

And for a reference point, 400 ppm - Level of CO (air-free) allowed inside furnace flues by an American gas association (now ANSI) standard.

So, it&#39;s permissible by ANSI standards for your properly adjusted kitchen stove to vent TWICE the level of CO INTO your home that your furnace can vent up the flue.

You th>>

[Joe Fischer]

How can you relate "permissible levels" with "properly adjusted"?

I don&#39;t think it is ok for any CO to be in closed living space, and all I mentioned is that there are millions of stove top burners and unvented ovens, if they are not safe, it is something that is not widely known.

While gas company men may not check for CO levels, they will not turn a meter on without making sure there are no burners on that are not controlled by safety valves.

The gas company turned my meter off last spring to fix a leak in the street, and I wasn&#39;t home when they wanted to turn it back on, and I told them to wait till fall, and when I called, the man came out and lit the space heater pilot in the living room, and wouldn&#39;t take my word that I had the supply valve to the gas range turned off, he checked top see for himself before turning the meter on, and wouldn&#39;t leave until I showed him the vent pipe for the space heater in my room that is turned off, but available if the grid goes down to replace my electric heat.

In about 1975, somehow the main gas valve for the entire city of Somerset, Pennsylvania was turned off, and it could not be turned back on until every one of the 5,000 or so meters were turned off, and the meters then only turned back on as men from utilities from several states went house to house lighting pilots, it took almost a week, luckily the temperature was in the 30s and 40s F.

Joe Fischer

[<kjpro]

The range manufactures believe so...