By from a place with a good warranty and known brand, HD. I have in 4 locations run over 100 HD cfls that rarely fail early, my percent early fail rate is 2%, so I save then return them in bulk to HD .
I bought that LOA crap, its one of the junk LEDs as you say, funny it wasnt even on the LOA web site, ACE sold it to me, im pissed at that LOA -ACE bulb too
I have "green" T8 4' fluros in my unheated shop and never have a problem when it's near freezing. I also used regular 9W CFLs to light a 40' cargo container which saw ambient temps below 0F, and had no issues there either other then about a 90 second wait for them to reach full brightness when it was that cold.
I've never had any issues with all the CFLs I use, and they are pretty much all made in China bulk pack ones. I really don't understand what factors may be involved with the folks who seem to have suck bad luck with CFLs, but I've used them extensively at 4 different locations in two different states, all with no problems at all.
On 4/12/2010 4:42 AM ransley spake thus:
So do they just scan the bulb? Is the bulb's barcode in their database? What if you buy a 4-pack and just return 1 blub?
On 4/12/2010 3:28 AM snipped-for-privacy@dog.com spake thus:
That's an interesting idea, and you may be right: this might be the wave of the future for home lighting.
One problem with this is that low-voltage wiring loses much more power over long runs than comparable high-voltage wiring, due to I^2R losses. (This can be partly compensated for by using heavier conductors, but that adds cost.) While this may not be a problem in a small, compact house where the batteries are centrally located, it will definitely be a problem on a large suburban "spread" where the batteries may be located in an outbuilding. Maybe not a show-stopper, but there will definitely be some energy losses to deal with. The homeowner may end up running
8-gauge cables over long runs.
Don't forget that these LEDs don't draw anywhere near what present incandescents and CFL's draw. Once you eliminate the point of use regulation, the draw is drasticallhy lower. A lot of the power consumption for present retrofit LED's is the heat given off during regulation. The LED's themselves barely draw anything by comparison.
I don't foresee needing long runs of 8 gauge wire in residential applications.
In , ransley wrote in small part:
Maybe the many L.O.A. CFLs that I have personally purchased and used and had personal experience with are other than these "many high quality commercial lighting products"?
Although L.O.A. appears to me to be much better than the outright stool specimens that nearly all dollar store CFLs (with possible exceptions at some Dollar Tree stores) appear to me to be, I am rather displeased by my personal experience with L.O.A. CFLs. I have only purchased two L.O.A. screw-base CFLs after 2002 and at least one likely both of those in 2005. One of those latest two gave me problems by the time I ran it a few 10's of operating hours and both of those two appeared to me to produce lower ratio of claimed to actual light output than I found from CFLs of most other brands and from most non-dollar-store A19-style incandescents that stated light output in lumens.
All of the L.O.A. CFLs that I purchased in 2002 or earlier similarly appeared to me to have lower ratio of actual to claimed light output than most CFLs other than L.O.A. and the dollar-store-junkers, and my memory at this moment is of 6 of these that I personally purchased and 2 of these 6 completely died young (around 12 and a few hundred operating hours respectively) and 2 others of these 6 significantly malfunctioned due to poor contact in plug-socket connections ("modular" rather than "integral" design, bulb plugs into a screw-base ballast module) and/or poor solder joints.
I mention this in at least a bit more detail in:
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
With the electronic schemes available nowadays (heavily using an inductor and a switching transistor that is usually a MOSFET) combined with a "catch diode", along with putting several LEDs in series for higher voltage drop, it is not that hard to get efficiency of delivering DC used by the LEDs from 120 volts AC around 90%.
Heck, there are common electronic fluorescent lamp ballasts that convert AC to DC and back to AC of a higher frequency and achieve all ballast functions with efficiency over 90%! Some of these even accept for a given application AC of voltage anywhere from 110 to 277 volts and of frequency of 50 or 60 Hz and probably anything in-between! I remembering paying a mere $17 for one that I remember as doing all of this!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
Not my experience - my experience with 120V AC LED lamps of 2 watts or more is that most of the consumed power usually actually goes to the LEDs themselves. My experience is that in units 2 watts or more, most of the heat comes from the LEDs. LEDs are even now generally 55-75% efficient or even more at converting electrical energy delivered them into heat rather than light, and much of that is non-radiant heat.
Not that I do for that matter...
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
I keep a package packing of the last group purchased, since I use over
100 at different locations I save the burnt out ones and wait till I have a full pack, but knowing HD they would give you just one, my failure rate is so minimal over 4 years and the prices now so low its really a non issue for me now. about .45C a bulb isnt much for what I save in electricity it is great that they do work well.
The Leds I see advertised are 80-100 LPW, but its a Spot output. I use cheap HD cfls of about 60 LPW for .45c each with 9 yr warranty. Ive seen a few CFLs now at around 70 LPW. Remember incandesant are only about 15 LPW. I cant see paying the near 100% premium price for LEDs at this time for only a near 20% increase on LPW for a colder color bulb, that usualy isnt outdoor rated or dimmable and with a truely unknown life span, I would relate that to the electronics package, in real life surges, weather extremes, vibrations, all take a toll on electronics and only time will really tell whether they last as they say. Either way the excessive premium does not make them a viable option for the average home owner now. Leds are really a spot light design, not fully illuminating like a regular bulb so in most locations they may be the right bulb, as a general bulb. In time competition will stop the price gouging Leds manufacturers now enjoy from limited competition, but that is years away. I want to try a few
2 w exterior Leds as landscape units, but even these are near 25$ each! I think its going to be Cfls for awhile for me.
I meant High Quality as kinda a joke. What I was suprised at was my ACE sold LOA leds that LOA wont even show on their site, they are crap, even a grey color of a bs lumen rating.
I got a dollar store CFL that blew apart in a matter of days. The little cheap capacitors blew apart like a black cat firecracker.
Long term the LED lights will suffer from the same issues as other electronics. Heat, solder, and component failure will do them in early too. Who cares about the warranty? the here today gone tomorrow Chinese MFR will make sure the warranty is next to worthless. And quality lights manufactured by major companies will not be cost effective. Who wants to be green when it costs more long term?
At least old school light bulbs tend to last. I think if Edison were to come back to life in 2010 he would be both amazed and befuddled at the same time
bob
You did show that LED bulbs are more conomical than incandescents.
However, CFLs appear to me to be more economic still, with lower ratio of acquisition cost to life expectancy than LED bulbs, and efficiency no worse than any LED bulb I ever heard of being on the market with a decent color and decent color rendering.
However, LEDs with good color and color rendering have a good chance of becoming more economical than CFLs in a few years.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
And NO hazardous material disposal problem.
The one lasting 25 times as long is not a CFL but an LED bulb.
A 13 or 14 watt CFL now often comes in 6-packs for $10, and appear to me to now actually last usually 5,000 hours or more in most home use.
A 60 watt incandescent may cost 80 cents, or 30 cents at home centers, and at the 12 cents per KWH that I think is current or very-soon USA national residential rate average consumes $7.20 in electricity over its
1,000 hour life. So maybe it costs $7.50 to acquire and operate over its 1,000 hour average life.A 14 watt CFL costing $1.67 and lasting 5,000 hours costs $10.07 at this rate to acquire and operate over its life that is 5 times as long. Which translates to costing $2.02 to use over the amount of time that a 60 watt incandescent costs $7.50. (.502 cent per hour of operation.)
$5.05 for each 60 watt incandescent over the amount of time it lasts is trivial? A smaller number for 40 watt incandescents and a bigger number for 75 and 100 watt ones?
A 100 watt incandescent rated to last on average 750 hours can be replaced by a 26 watt CFL, and 130V 100 watt incandescents and Philips "Double life" 100W incandescents as well as any lasting even longer can be replaced by a 23 watt CFL. At 12 cents per KWH, this amounts to .888 to .924 cent per hour. Acquisition costs of $3-$4.50 CFLs likely to last 4,000 hours or more (especially 23 watt ones that overheat less easily than 26 watt ones) will reduce these savings to around .77 to .84 cent per hour. Add to these the acquisition cost of incandescents, anywhere from .02 to .11 cent per hour, unless they are superlonglife ones dim enough to be replaced by an 18-20 watt CFL rather than a 23 watt one. So a 100 watt incandescent costs on average .79-.95 cent per operating hour more than a CFL replacent.
How many bulbs do you have, and how many hours per month do you use each one?
For most people, difference between incandescent and CFL for all of their light bulb uses where CFLs make sense adds up to a lot more than some mere pennies per month.
Can you cite how it is the "bulb industry" (electric lamp industry, in large part GE and Philips and Sylvania) rather than environmental groups lobbied for the incandescent ban? It appears to me that GE, Philips and Sylvania would rather oppose it, now that I am seeing CFLs with lower ratio of price to life expectancy than most incandescents.
I have heard of the lamp industry working with Congress on the details of the ban. I suspect the results of that were a large range of exemptions, many of which actually make sense to me to lack of suitable non-incandescent replacements. The exemptions all together appear to me to amount to a set of loopholes wide enough to reroute the Mississippi River through. I mention those in:
My experience with CFLs is much more favorable. They appear to me to actually last on average in my actual home usage 3,500 to 4,000 hours for the ones that have burned out so far, with some distinct and notable exceptions mostly notably avoidable. The ones that I have to burn out, of which I have plenty, appear to me to have mostly lasted at least 4,000 operating hours. I seem to think that 5,000 hours is reasonable for actual typical home use.
The odds get good if you get ones of a "Big 3" brand (GE, Philips, Sylvania) or one that has the Energy Star logo, especially one with both accomplishments.
My experience suggests to avoid Lights of America and the even-badly-much-worse-still dollar store stool specimens.
Use them only where on average they are on at least a few minutes when they are turned on. They are not economical for motion sensor lights, closet lights or refrigerator lights.
CFLs can overheat in small enclosed fixtures and recessed ceiling fixtures. Most problems in that area can be avoided by using only CFLs overtly rated for such purposes or of wattage no more than 23 watts. (Better still no more than 13 watts if that provides sufficient light.)
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
In , snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in part:
I would guess from being used in those heat hellholes known as recessed ceiling fixtures.
I would look for ones of the Philips brand, and I did just check and see that bulbs.com has these. I even found two dimmable ones with no noted restrictions, but they are fairly expensive:
Those were *the standard* for commercial lighting from at least as far back as sometime in the 1960's until T8 displaced them largely in the
1990's. However, there were and are lower grade "residential grade" ballasts for those.Also - if the fixture has a starter and a replacement bulb is cranky or malfunctions, replace the starter. Bad bulbs are hard on starters, and bad starters are hard on bulbs.
If you man 34 watt version of F40T12, those are crankier than the true
40 watt ones. They still worked well in commercial grade fixtures with commercial grade ballasts.- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
Much of how an incandescent gets rid of its heat is by radiation. Close to half the power going into an incandescent (varies by individual design) becomes infrared of wavelengths that the filament radiates through the glass. That infrared goes where the light goes. The heat materializes where this radiation is absorbed - usually mostly outside the fixture.
Incandescents also work OK at higher temperatures that CFLs and LED bulbs are not OK in.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.