Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring

[volts500]

Make that 4.

[Charlie Morgan]

This is turning out to be quite a black eye for the profession!

CWM

[Chris Friesen]

The CEC on the other hand explicitly allows (and in some cases mandates) grounding via metal cold water pipe.

In fact, if you have at least 10ft metal piping buried deep enough then it *must* be used as the service grounding electrode. This is acceptable without any additional artificial electrodes.

If the above is not available, we can also use a metal well casing, ground rods (at least 2), or concrete encased electrode under the building footings.

Chris

[dpb]

Actually, I did word what I intended incorrectly by using the phrase "real estate agent" as that does have a specific connotation. What I intended was simply "agent" as there are buyers' and sellers' agents as you note. However, it is not true that in every locale a different agent must represent seller/buyer -- there are many jurisdictions for which that still isn't a requirement although as far as I know, they are required to reveal that (although in TN as one example, the disclosure was pretty much hidden in the fine print and you had to dig through all the contract "legalese" in order to get to it -- it wasn't required to be "disclosed" as an upfront listing of "how I am paid" kinds of things as in a disclosure form.

That's true, and the key thing is that every state has laws and rules that are not the same everywhere so there is an understandable reason for the confusion -- it is very easy to take one's experience from a particular place and assume it is applicable elsewhere, but that just "ain't necessarily so"...

[John F. F.]

Thanks to you for the point by point reply and RBM and all . I will check the points you make about splices and such but I haven't seen any evidence of it. John

[hallerb]

nearly everywhere the agents comission comes out of sellers proceeds, and in PA all agewnts work for the seller unless otherwise specified.

Reality is agents skirt a fine line to get as many sales as possible, since the depend on comissions....

selling a home today is the pits, what with home inspectors, demanding buyers, pushy mortage companies, many people with poor credit, the list in endless.........

[hallerb]

Just so you know the K&T insurance issue is true heres a paste from another board discussing it. I have NO connection with anything there, and put some of this up as a reference to insurance rules today!

As you can see insurance has become picky recently....

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Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55

We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that we are in the process of purchasing. The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take possession of the house.

He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?

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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11

Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you

30-60 days to disconnect and replace it. This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it was with a high risk company.

First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.

If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see how your company deals with knob & tube issues.

Hope this helps.

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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00

Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew.

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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49

I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days. The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold though.

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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06

When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked up.

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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21

Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.

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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45

We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through Vermont Mutual. VT

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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01

We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise

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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00

We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would. We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!

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Posted by athomein1914 (My Page) on Fri, Nov 11, 05 at 20:36

Our house was almost entirely knob & tube when purchased and we had no trouble insuring. (Allstate) We've since rewired to code and insulated the attic. There was zero insulation when we purchased our home.

Another insurance issue we've run into is insuring for replacement of the historic home we have as opposed to a flat rate per square foot. I find there is tremendous variation among insurance companies, and among policies, and every so often I call around to update myself and my home. You can insure beyond the "standard" to protect your not-so-standard home.

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Posted by terryr (My Page) on Sun, Nov 13, 05 at 16:44

We have Grange Insurance on an 1896 house. They didn't ask us about knob & tube, only about fuses vs. circuit breaker. We had 90 days to upgrade to a CB.

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Posted by Bella_Design (My Page) on Mon, Nov 14, 05 at 23:23

I have a 1918 house in TN. It has some K&T in it as well. The main breaker had two 100 amp fuses in it and was able to insure it with the condition that I replace the fuse box with a circuit breaker, but none of the wiring was a problem. The thing I had the most problem with was that it is partially asbestos sided. Try Erie Insurance if they are available in your area.

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

That may be so in PA and where your "nearly everywhere" covers, but not so here -- generally the commission is paid by the buyer although it is typically a first offer request by a prospective purchaser for the seller to pay it instead. That, of course, is also occasionally dependent on whether the listing agency/agent finds the prospect or whether the prospect comes from a MLS agent. Whether the seller accepts the offer to "eat" the commission is their call -- some will to close the deal, some won't as they think they've set a fair market price, some will offer to split the difference.

Here, the side of the fence the agent is on depends solely on what the contract says -- and they may, under certain circumstances, act as brokers for either/both. Bottom line is, need to know what the local laws are and read every contract word carefully, as they aren't the same everywhere by any means.

[volts500]

You're a funny guy Charlie! If you don't believe 4 electricians with a combined experience of over 100 years, will you believe a certified electrical inspector? If so, go ask him:

If you don't believe him, then try alt.engineering.electrical

[Bud--]

Contrary to Charlie, the US-NEC rule is almost identical. The depth ("deep enough") doesn't matter. And the NEC requires a "supplemental" electrode only because a metal underground water pipe may be replaed by plastic at some time in the future.

The NEC does not generally allow connecting grounds to water pipes except within 5 feet of the water service entrance, which may be what Charlie is picking up.

-- bud--

[daisy]

Cheap house for sale

Men used to have knobs but not no more. Men are knobless wimps these days, and none of them use tubes anymore either.

Dont light that fuse

This message is too long........ Fuggitt

estimate was given for that work.