Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring

How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should

The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless the new buyer happens to say be a electrician

quote from OP

An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to

Steve Barker LT spake thus:

I can verify this as well. I work on lots of houses that were built when knob & tube and ungrounded NM cable were the standard; all of them are insured and would pass a local inspection.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com spake thus:

First of all, the word is "prospective". And what makes you so sure that the (prospective) seller *must* disclose it? The report came from an electrician hired by a prospective buyer: are you a real estate lawyer, and can therefore tell us that this makes disclosure mandatory? I'm not, and I can't.

Not that he shouldn't, of course; besides which, no buyer in their right mind should buy the house before determining the type and condition of wiring in the house.

In any case, it's far from a show-stopper for selling the house. Lots of old houses have old wiring that should be, or has to be, replaced, and buyers are (or should be) aware of this. It all comes down to figuring it into the selling price.

Just my $0.02 here; I lived for neary 30 years in a neighborhood with

I know dozens of howmowners besides myself. It surely may be different in different areas, but I've never heard of a single instance of an insurance co even _asking_ about what type of wiring was in a home, and except in connection with a claim, I've never heard of an insurance company sending someone inside a home to inspect the wiring or anything else.

Now appraisers are a different story...

No disrespect, but IMHO, that statement holds about as much water as a paper bag. K&T wiring is grandfathered in by the NEC. If a real electrical inspector, as the AHJ (Authority Having Juresdiction), made the determination that the wiring was faulty, then it would be a fault that would require disclosure.

Not trying to date myself, but maybe some history from an electrician who has been through 10 NEC cycles (30 years) will help.

The only real problem with K&T is that much of it has been abused and misused over the years. If the wiring is brittle, usually from overheating from air conditioners and such, or kitchen circuits, or light fixtures, yes, it's time for it to go. OTOH, some K&T, usually in well maintained historic sections have been well taken care of and is still good. I've seen more bad K&T than good, though. That's probably one reason many insurance companies won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required. In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but must also tear out all of the K&T.

I remember in the late '80's when the NEC rule that allowed 3 prong receptacles to be installed on 2-wire circuits (including K&T) as long as they were GFCI protected came about, that the COMPETITIVE bid for a re-wire for the area that I was working in at the time dropped from $3500 (US) to about $2200 simply because as long as the K&T was in reasonably good shape, and to this day, all one has to do to meet NEC is replace the first outlet in a circuit with a GFCI, slam in some regular 3 prong receptacles in the rest of the circuit outlets and call it a done deal.

Even the 60 amp panel would probably calculate out OK, however, NEC and many financial institutions now require 100 amp minimum, regardless of the service calc. However, an existing 60 amp service is grandfathered by NEC.

Even grounding in old houses is grandfathered. As you probably know, until the late 1980's it was not uncommon to use the interior water pipe to ground a service, or ground a receptacle, as long as the water meter and water heater were jumpered. In fact, there is no doubt that many of these installations still exist and are grandfathered and safe as long as no one comes along and installs plastic without jumping it.

If not for plastic, we would probably still be using the old rules. I'll take an underground water pipe (at least 20 feet) any day as a good ground. In fact, NEC still requires it if available. IMO, ground rods should be outlawed as the only grounding means, in favor of an easily installed (during new construction) Ufer ground.

As an electrician, I try to convince people to get rid of K&T, regardless of the condition, however, the intent of the NEC is not to cause undo hardship on folks.

That varies by state, there are parts of the country where getting insurance for K&T isn't a problem; in other parts of the country it's quite difficult. In Washington State, for example, I didn't have any trouble insuring my home with K&T, but it did make the insurance more expensive.

K&T isn't a defect per se, it's simply outdated. I wouldn't suggest hiding it from buyers, but I wouldn't intentionally scare them with it, either.

If I were selling, I'd at least get a quote for a rewire, to decide whether to take care of it before selling or to sell the house as-is. I'd also do a bit of insurance shopping, and if I found an insurance company that would insure the house without rewiring, I'd invite them to write a letter to that effect that could be shown to prospective buyers.

If you're in a location where the wiring really will prevent anyone from insuring the house, that could greatly depress the selling price, because without insurance they also won't be able to get a mortgage.

If you're in an area where K&T just means a few hundred dollars a year in higher insurance premiums, I'd find a good insurer to refer buyers to and sell as-is.

There are huge variations in insurance inspection requirements depending on your insurance company, the age of your house, and the type of insurance you are applying for.

When I insured my house a couple of years ago, because of its age (100+ years old, which is unusual in Washington State) and apparent condition (previous owners hadn't painted in decades), it got an inside-and-out inspection by a senior loss adjuster from the insurance company.

He not only verified that the house had mostly K&T wiring, he inspected the condition of the wiring where it was reasonably accessible, the attic, the crawlspace, etc., and pulled a few outlets to inspect them in the kitchen and bath, since those are locations that tend to be overloaded with modern appliances in older homes.

After confirming that the K&T was in good shape, and addressing some other issues, he had no objections, and our insurance went through just fine.

I'm far from alone in that, I know personally at least a dozen homes insured in the last year with K&T wiring.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com spake thus:

It's "risk averse"--sheesh, why does everyone get that one wrong? And insurers have *always* been risk-averse. Nothing new there.

But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it.

nate

Yes the water pipes should be bonded, but they are not to be used to provide ground for anything else.

CWM

makes you so sure that

I sold a home about 2 years ago, the first buyer backed out after the home inspection. The realtor said I HAD to give all shoppers access to the first home inspection since it was now part of the disclosure process..

I fixed mearly every issue the first inspector found, except the attic temp which was more than 15 degrees hotter than the outside on a hot july day. Home inspector one said I had to add vent fans even though I had ridge and gable end vents. oddly the second inspector said it wasnt a problem.

today selling a home is a minefield of hassles even when your home is in great shape.

first home inspector complained no GFCI on sump pump, second inspector complained it WAS protected, I had added a GFCI for the pump.

You see there are TWO ISSUES NEC which grandfathers stuff in and mortage and insurance companies who set their OWN RULES.

Now its IMPOSSIBLE to inspect all the K&T since its buried in walls, lacks boxes and is often abused by ACs and other heavy loads. Honestly wouldnt it cost more to inspect it than rewire?

The last part of his post says from a PRO ............ not only replace it all but rip out all the old K&T thats so someone doesnt decide to reuse it in the future

I HAVE A GOOD IDEA, WHEN AND IF THE OP SELLS HIS HOME WOULD HE PLEASE REPORT BACK HERE WITH THE OUTCOME?

MY INSURANCE AGENT SAID homeowners used to be a cash cow, but after the major hurricane losses the underwriters started looking closely to minimize all future losses.

so 5 years ago K&T may have been no problem but today its a showstopper.

or may raise insurance premiums a LOT.......

disclosure isnt limited to code violations. LONG list, age of roof?any leaks EVER? ANYTHING THAT EVER WENT WRONG and how it was fixed.

fail to disclose, item causes trouble seller pays for repairs, and worse it will be a high class high cost job.

neighbor had bad sewer line terracotta pipe, everyones is bad. tree roots:( plus illegal install at time homes were built over 50 years ago. Sewer line also under slab drain.:(

anyhow the buyer sued the seller and won over 10 grand for sewer line replacement and yard / driveway restoration...........

the old days of cover it up buyers trouble are long gone

I agree that "disclosing" the presence of K&T is the right thing to do. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, I think the OP was scared by the electrician's use of the word "correct" in his quote. If there is no code violation there's nothing to "correct." "Upgrade" would be a more accurate word. The real question is, has the OP had any electrical issues? If no, then IMHO he should still tell prospective buyers about the presence of K&T wiring in the interest of an amicable and fair negotiation, however if everything is working correctly there is no fault that needs to be corrected.

Again, if there are grounding-type outlets without grounds, or insulation blown in around pre-existing K&T wiring, those *ARE* issues, but the OP did not mention either.

nate

Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's statement is in acordance with the NEC.

-- bud--

Incorrect interpretation. You need to take what the code says as a whole, not just select snippets without context. If you have your own well, you "might" be able to do that, and get it past an inspector, but if a water meter exists between that pipe and the part buried in the earth, you cannot. The pipe, if used, must be unbroken for a length of at least 10 feet in the earth and enter the houase without any breaks, joints, or devices in line.

CWM

If talking about grounding electrodes, a water pipe with at least 10 foot of metal in contact with the earth has been required for a long time to be part of the grounding electrode system. Particularly with a municipal metal water supply system, the water service pipe will have a much lower resistance to ground than ground rods, which are "supplemental" electrodes (required only because a metal water service may become plastic in the future). Mentioned somewhere in this thread, a concrete encased electrode (Ufer ground) is now required in new construction that has footings, and is used in place of a ground rod.

-- bud--

Others HERE reported they could get insurance

isnt that sufficient?

You can't generalize your experiences to the whole country.

Getting insurance with k&T wiring may or may not be a problem depending on area and insurance company.

And K&T wiring is not a defect under the NEC and there is nothing to disclose (unless local codes don't allow its continued use).

-- bud--