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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring

I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas; fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits. An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that work. This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With 200 amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for $1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable). The buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this mean nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a 100 amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

Reply to
John F. F.
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IMO, I would just leave it as is, and let a buyer do whatever he wants to upgrade it. The existing wiring was legal when installed and K&T is still recognized by the NEC. Clearly the service and wiring should be replaced, simply because of its age, but by the person who needs it done.

Reply to
RBM

PS, to answer your question, you can run a ground wire from a cold water pipe to each outlet, but I take exception with the phase " to correct the ungrounded wiring, there is nothing to correct. It wasn't incorrect. It is obsolete, but as long as the outlets are non grounding type, there is no violation

Reply to
RBM

Thanks for super prompt reply. I'm a bit confused about your comment that as long as the outlets are non grounding type. Does that mean just two prong outlet with no ground hole? If I wanted to replace outlet with 3-prong is that a violation then and is that when I would run a ground wire to the water line? Thanks again. John

Reply to
John F. F.

The NEW owner probably couldnt get homeowners insurance and ANYONE you try selling too is going to have the same issues. Plus you now MUST disclose this problem to all perspective buyers!

You would of MUCH better off discounting the home price by the cost of rewiring and selling the home. This isnt just a problem for THIS BUYER its now a problem for all buyers!

Incidently the marginal cost between a 100 amp and 200 amp service upgrade is VERY little....... I once went from 60 to 100 amps and now need a 200 amp upgrade:(.

That difference is likley only a couple hundred bucks.......

What was sale price of home? What was rewire cost?

Sadly you cant fix K&T to make it insurance OK............

Sate farm will NEVER insure a home purchased today with K&T I asked my agent..........

Reply to
hallerb

Correct, as long as the outlet doesn't have the ground hole, it's legal, but if you install outlets with the ground hole, there needs to be a ground conductor attached to it

Reply to
RBM

This is REALLY bad advice. You cannot use cold water pipes as your ground.

Unless the buyer does not need any sort of loan to buy, the wiring will have to be replaced. If they need financing, they will also need insurance, and that won't happen with Knob & Tube wiring.

There is nothing inherently bad about K&T wiring if it is in good condition, but there isn't an insurance company anywhere that I know of that will write a new policy for a house wired that way. 200 amp service is pretty much the minimum standard these days for good reason, and the difference between rewiring for 100 or 200 amps is not enough to quibble over.

CWM

Reply to
Charlie Morgan

FWIW ... At $40K, is perhaps most of the value in the land? If so, then I'd be wary of the buyer that's just looking for a way to get the price down ( a buyer might be buying to demolish and rebuild ... that's what going on around here). But first, if you haven't already done so, you really need to get an appraisal done to establish the value as is. And if it was me I'd avoid all that electrical and whatever else, and sell as is ... with my lawyer taking over once I had a written offer that I liked in my hand.

FWIW: Last year I had the old side of the house rewired (was knob and tube) in order to get insurance renewed. Two story 1911 home ... cost was $6000 cdn and the 100A breaker panel was previously installed ... $500. I am just now finishing up patching and painting ... walls and ceilings are full of circular 4" holes to run the new wiring. So there's more to the rewiring than just the wiring. Or ... if you go ahead with the wiring and aren't prepared to do the patching and painting, then cost that in too.

So from my experience, I'd sell as is. Now if it was $650,000 property, that might make a difference :-)

Reply to
bowgus

I agree. DO NOT use the water pipes. You could run a green wire to all the outlets, but DO NOT use the water pipes. Running the green wire may not be up to code in many areas, although it will work perfectly well. That wire needs to start at the main panel and connect to the ground (where ground rod connects in the panel).

Depends on the state. Some states dont disprove it from what i know. When I worked with an electrician, the city did not ban K&T. It was actually a very safe system.

The best bet would be to replace the old fuse panel with a 100 or 200A panel, then run new wiring and outlets to the kitchen appliances and washing machine area, and maybe the heating system. Leave the lighting wiring alone, as well as outlets in bedrooms and such. If you must replace outlets in those rooms, use the no-ground type. Lighting really dont need grounds, and most outlets in bedrooms, living room, etc are just used to plug in vacuum, radio, tv, hairdryer etc. These things usually dont have a ground anyhow. The bathroom should have a GFI installed.

Reply to
maradcliff

connecting ground wires to a cold water pipe:(:(:( BAD.

Imagine the water meter removed for some reason or poor connection electrically thru meter, say from rubber washers......

A electrical fault to ground:(

Touching any part of the water system can KILL, like stepping in a shower!

sell them home as is or discount the cost of rewiring, or tear home down cause you cant sell it...........

Reply to
hallerb

For $40,000 the buyer should expect a few things not to be perfect. A buyer insisted I pay for a new roof. Sure, it needed a new roof, but so what? The next week I sold for the full asking price.

So, unless $40,000 is too high you shouldn't be thinking of fixing anything.

Reply to
Toller

Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box

Reply to
RBM

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities, repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

Reply to
hallerb

when was that? sorry its no longer a sellers market and the fact remains most insurance companies will not write new policies on home with K&T and a buyer CANT buy a home without homeowners insurance and even a cash buyer will want homeowners.......

Thje OPs home isnt saleable as is and this problem must by law be disclosed to all future buyers.

It cost big bucks to keep a vacant home alive, insurance, utilities, repairs.

might be better off to reconsider that buyer................

there is NO FIX short of rewiring that will make that K&T disappear

Reply to
hallerb

You squawk a lot about the impossibility of insuring houses with K&T wiring. I can tell you for a fact, as a licensed electrical contractor for over thirty years, I have MANY customers in Westchester county, NY with K&T in their homes, and believe it or not, they ALL have homeowner insurance

Reply to
RBM

No you can't. Bad advice.

CWM

Reply to
Charlie Morgan

This is not necessarily true.

This is not true either. Many companies don't ask or don't have a problem with properly maintained K&T wiring.

You need to look some more.

Steve Barker

Reply to
Steve Barker LT

I'm not in Westchester County, I'm in Monroe County, NY, and I do have homeowner's insurance for full replacement value of my house, built in

1930, which I'm also sure has K&T throughout the house (we moved in here in April 2003 and met a really nice 60 amp circuit breaker box, which we immediately upgraded to 200 amps). Yes, I'd love to replace it all, but I'm first putting in new circuits as a way of taking entire areas of the house off of what I consider to be overloaded circuits.

A house with K&T is not unsaleable necessarily. Take a chill pill, hallberb.

Reply to
KLS

Oh yes it is! Cold water pipes have not been code approved as a ground source for many years.

Please name ONE, and provide cites.

No. You need to update your outdated knowlege.

regards, CWM

Reply to
Charlie Morgan

Your house is typical of early twentieth century houses, and like you, incrementally folks disconnect sections of the old wiring and run new wiring. Fact is K&T wiring has held up quite well, and if the powers that be didn't change to a grounded system around the fifties, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation

Reply to
RBM

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