A friend of mine bought a house in Baltimore County 5 or 10 years ago that still had knob and tube wiring, at least in the attic. My friend says you can't get a mortgage if you don't pass inspectinon and you can't pass inspection with k&t wiring.
What do you think happened?
Does not matter what your friends said, it matters what the present code is and if it was properly inspected.
It is also possible the K&T was in place but disconnected. We had that in one of our buildings at work and never had a problem.
Too many possible variables to say for sure.
Your friend paid cash?
I think the house burned to the ground and the insurance company wouldn't pay and your friend committed hara-kiri after murdering the inspector. I think I read about that case in the National Enquirer.. or it might have been a movie-of-the-week I'll get back to you on that. John T.
Do we get a prize if we guess the right answer and what is it? My guess is that since Micky said that his friend bought the house, that he in fact bought it. End of story.
Inspected or appraised?
You can't get a mortgage without an appraisal. Lenders perform an appraisal to make sure that the house is worth at least what the borrower is asking for. They need to make sure that they can sell the property and get back what they lent if the borrower defaults.
An inspection is typically for the homeowner's benefit so they know what they are getting into. (NPI) It can also be used a negotiation tool to get the seller to lower the price, give some money back at closing or perform a needed repair before closing. And don't let the current practice of submitting an offer without a inspection contingency fool you. The buyer can still play the inspection card after the offer is accepted. It's up to the seller to agree or not, but if (s)he doesn't agree and the buyer walks, the seller has to go through the trouble of putting the house back on the market.
However, an FHA mortgage is a little different. While they don't require that the *buyer* get an inspection done, their appraisal process includes evaluating the condition of the house and they can require that repairs be made before they will sign off on the mortgage. In the end, the buyer pays for the inspection when they pay for the FHA appraisal.
K&T wiring will pass an FHA inspection as long as the system is deemed to safe and the electrical system meets the other criteria of an FHA loan.
Up here an electrical condition inspection is required - aluminum wirin can pas but it's been a long time since K&T stood a chance. (possibly on an un-molested historic house - but not likely
Electrical Safety Authority inspection required by insurance company and occaisionally the bank
OK. The problem with K&T is mofifications.A house wired with K&T usually had less than a 60 amp service with 2 or 4 circuits. Most of those circuits were lighting cirguits - and MOST of the devices were surfacxe mounted with no boxes. All connections were hidden (except those in open basement ot attic structures) soldered and taped connections. Shorts were uncommon because the wires are separated by a minimum of 8 inches..
A lot of the buildings were also "ring topology" - both live and neutral had both ends connected to the panel. (Not all - but a significant number)
Adding "modern" loads required adding to the wiring - and how THAT was done is the important elephant in the room. If the K&T is not touched and new romex circuits are added FROM THE PANEL it is not a problem. The right way is a new panel with the existing K&T panel set up as a sub panel - and otherwise NOT TOUCHED!!!.. When new lighting fixtures etc need to be added, run new circuits from the new panel according to current code. Decommission the circuits no longer used.
Tapping into the original K&T in ANY WAY will generally trigger a fail under an electrical safety authority inspection - as will ANYTHING other than lighting circuits on K&T. It is a safety and fire safety issue as virtually NO living electrician is competent in K&T technique and the old rubber/cloth insulation doesn't respond well to manipulation.
My Dad was an electrician and did a LOT of renovation wiring in older homes and saw a LOT of extremely badly done "modifications" to K&T systems - and had to remedy the problems caused including complete rewires of houses where the modified K&T had not QUITE managed to burn the house to the ground.
I think it is modern redlining - an excuse to not mortgage (or insure) old houses.
Example:
Years back the NEC prohibited insulation in contact with K&T. I don't think there was ever any evidence that had caused problems. The head electrical inspector for Minneapolis, where a lot of insulation has been added, provided a comment that he saw no "record of hazard". After the provision was enacted California was sued and could provide no record of a problem. California and a few other states now allow insulation.
K&T is still in the NEC although permitted uses are very limited.
In Minnesota, State Farm put a surcharge on houses that did not have the service replaced in some time period (don't remember what it was). They were reversed by the state insurance regulator. There was no insurance casualty data that supported the surcharge.
I would rather have K&T than some of the early 2-wire Romex type stuff with tar-paper(???) jacket. Particularly embedded in insulation you have
2 wires together heating up instead of 1.
You've all given me a lot to think about, especially Bud. I guess I'll have to ask him but because of what I read here, we may have a much better conversation.
It's possible none of the k&t was still in use when he bought the house. I saw it in hise attic. I would have kept it as a souvenir but he had it ripped out.
The US does not require "lighting circuits". K&T powered whatever was installed at that time.
Maybe where you are. I have seen a lot of K&T and NEVER seen that.
Wiring in open basements is "open wiring on insulators"
That may be how you do it. It is common in the UK. Maybe the queen told your electricians to use ring circuits.
I have never even heard of that in the US.
A subpanel just for K&T is another nutty Canadian idea? Also never seen that. Existing K&T is just refed from a new service panel.
The NEC allows "extensions of existing installations". (That is probably uncommon.)
My mothers house had K&T. I survived in it for 20 years (Perhaps a miracle??). At some point she replaced the service with a 100A fuse panel and added some receptacles and other wiring. That is likely very common. If a house has only original K&T wiring the Smithsonian museum is probably interested.
So lighting fixtures can't be replaced? Or is this just new wiring, where lighting is not unique (except apparently in Canada).
The NEC allows "extensions of existing installations".
The US does not require "lighting circuits". K&T powered whatever was installed at that time.
I guess I am not a living electrician. Minor changes are not that difficult (like refeeding, which is common with a new service).
Rubber I have seen is generally in good condition. Original wiring in my house is rubber (in rigid conduit).
My kid's house had a lot of "extremely badly done" wiring. There was no K&T. So argue about wiring of any type that is in bad condition.
As I wrote I have more concerns about the early 2-wire stuff before Romex.
I have heard of no data that says K&T is intrinsically a particular hazard.
Note the court ruling and multiple states allowing insulation around K&T.
And the NEC is trying to put most EXISTING residential circuits on AFCIs.
Also 2-wire circuits can be connected downstream from a GFCI.
I see a few errors in this thread as for insulation the code says
"394.12 Uses Not Permitted.Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall not be used in the following: ... (5)Hollow spaces of walls, ceilings, and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors".
It must also be concealed in most cases or covered by running boards.
"394.23 In Accessible Attics. Conductors in unfinished attics and roof spaces shall comply with 394.23(A) or (B).Informational Note: See 310.15(A)(3) for temperature limita-tion of conductors.(A) Accessible by Stairway or Permanent Ladder. Conductors shall be installed along the side of or through bored holes in floor joists, studs, or rafters. Where run through bored holes,conductors in the joists and in studs or rafters to a height of not less than 2.1 m (7 ft) above the floor or floor joists shall be protected by substantial running boards extending not less than 25 mm (1 in.) on each side of the conductors. Running boards shall be securely fastened in place. Running boards and guard strips shall not be required where conductors are instal-led along the sides of joists, studs, or rafters.(B) Not Accessible by Stairway or Permanent Ladder.Conductors shall be installed along the sides of or through bored holes in floor joists, studs, or rafters"
You should also check with your AHJ because plenty of jurisdictions hate K&T and will impose even stricter standards.
Personally I would remove it if I had it.
The NEC on insulation was specifically referenced:
1 There was no substantiation of a problem when the code change was proposed. As you know that is very often the basis for not adopting a code change. 2 "The head electrical inspector for Minneapolis, where a lot of insulation has been added, provided a comment [ROP] that he saw no 'record of hazard' ". 3 "After the provision was enacted California was sued and could provide no record of a problem. California and a few other states now allow insulation."All 3 specifically relate to the NEC article.
I also commented that I am more concerned with early 2-wire Romex type stuff, particularly in insulation (which is not prohibited). You have 2 wires in contact with each other contributing heat and a possible fault. Problem was fixed quite recently for new wiring with NM-B.
I believe that is why in open basements the wiring is "open wiring on insulators"
Don't remember attics were really discussed.
Thats nice, particularly if you are opening walls and ceilings.
Otherwise replacing it can be damned expensive. And some jurisdictions may have requirements that at some expenditure the system has to be new-code compliant.
And MOST K7T installations had very few "outlets" - mostly lighting -= untill the last decade or 2 of it's use.
K&T very seldom used boxes in original installation
As it is even within walls and enclosed floor / cieling
Ring Topology was relatively common in EARLY K&T. Not so common in later years
No, not nutty, and not Canada specific. And I am not talking about "adding" a sub panel. I an talking about using the existing K&T panel AS a sub panel to avoid mofifying / disturbing the K&T circuits, since that is where any problems are likely to happen.
It ALLOWS extentions - but they have to be done properly - and when the cloth / rubber insulation deteriorates doing ANY modifications gets dicey. Just because code "allows" it does not make it adviseable.
If there is no box it is against code to mount fixtures requiring a box. Adding a box to a K$T circuit that does not have a box is problematic at best - particularly if / when the wire from the old fixture is roasted / toasted / sun-tanned and crispy fried.
Only in the USA I guess. Rigid conduit in residential wiring is virtually unheard of in Canada.
It isn't - and I didn't say it is. I SAID shorts are almost unheard of due to the spacing of the wires. Unmolested K&T IS SAFE - but seldome actually found "in the wild"
Again, just because it is ALLOWED does not make it wise
So???
So???
Are you a professional electician ??
So "few outlets" not "lighting"? Null and void in the last decade? As I wrote, you are unlikely (here) to find a K&T installation that does not have a new service and added wiring including receptacles.
Nice to know you are an expert on US wiring practice. Sorry about the sad state of Canada.
If you read the post from g, if enclosed it is K&T. "Open wiring on insulators" is another NEC type of wiring. No penalty for this one - it is esoteric NEC.
Irrelevant because it was not used in the US. Or is Mickey Canadian? (That might explain some things.)
Apparently Canadian electricians are not be qualified for "modifying" K&T. I haven't had a problem.
My mother's house had the original K&T service on the 2nd floor. Feeding it would require running a feeder from the basement service panel into a wall on the 2nd floor. You then have fuses on the second floor in addition to the service panel in the basement. The electricians who installed the new stuff had no problem feeding the K&T where it was exposed (fortunately they were not Canadian). I have never seen an original K&T panel refed. And the 2 panels I remember had exposed terminal screws on the fuse blocks- an inspector would love that.
You have convinced me. Canadian electricians should not even be in a building with K&T.
No boxes is another Canadian thing?
The most toasted wires I have seen were not K&T and were behind Circline fluorescent fixtures.
Maybe there was a problem with Canadian wire?
But now you said "few 'outlets' - mostly lighting". So original installations will fail because of the "few outlets". And all will fail if installed in "last decade or 2 of it's use".
Canadian electricians are molesters? Insurance prohibition is not based on whether K&T is molested.
I haven't seen many K&T problems. Again, sorry about the sad state of electric in Canada.
I'm sure you will be surprised to hear that I have seen other wiring systems that have been molested.
It was allowed because there was no record of a problem.
I don't think Chicago went far enough requiring EMT. All wiring should be rigid conduit. Who needs facts.
Removes a lot of the risk from wiring problems (K&T or other). Insurance requiring K&T to be on an AFCI would make some sense, but that would defeat redlining.
One of the complaints about K&T (miraculously missing in this thread) is that it does not include a ground wire. Downstream from a GFCI eliminates most of that problem, and the NEC allows grounded type receptacles downstream from a GFCI when there is not a ground.
Master electrician.
I am not fond of K&T. I have just not seen where it is a lot more dangerous than some other methods like, as I have said, the early 2-wire pre-Romex. And you agree "unmolested K&T IS SAFE". K&T, like all methods, can be abused. I don't think insurance or mortgage restrictions are based in safety. Replacing it, unless you are doing a gut-rehab is real expensive.
And looking at the 3 summarized points to g on insulation, I don't think the NEC insulation restriction is based on facts or data. I am sure g is shocked to think code panel decisions are not based on facts or data. Well, maybe not "shocked"...
Sorry about the ignorance of SOME Americans.
I happen to have the AMERICAN "Bible" of electrical wiring from 1914 in my hands - handed down to me through generations of electricians, starting in the USA and continuing to Canada as my "american" ancestors came to Canada.
I have my great great uncle's copy of the "american electrical handbook" - firdt edition - second printing - 1914 - by Tyrell Croft close at hand.
Apperntly you donlt know that "knob and tube" is a subclass of "open wiring on insulators" differentiated from surface mounted "knob and cleat" by the use of ceramic tubes to run wire THROUGH wooden support structures insted of running them a minimum of one inch fron the structure AROUND it on Knobs only.
Actually the legal minimum was 5 inches - (I was mistaken thinking the minimum was 8 since 8 inches was commonly used here in Canada)
This goes back before the NEC (first codified in 1911 as part of the National Fire Protection Association)
It was also more common in insustrial and commercial applications because it virtually doubled the current capacity of the wire since the current was split between the wires going to each end of the "ring". The live "ring" would run around the building while the neutral could either run around it as well or be run up the center of the building, with each "branch circuit" tapped off around the perimeter. "center neutral" made it VERY difficult to mix up the live and neutral . In residential applications it was generally in 2 circuit installations. When 3 wire (110/220) and multiple circuit panels became common the advantages of ring topology pretty much dissapeared.
It is also referenced in Crofts "American Electricians Handbook" so it WAS known and used in the USA.
I'm willing to bet there is one HELL OF A LOT that you are unaware of having been done / used in the US!!!
Just because YOU have not "had a problem" doesn't mean you are "qualified" for "modifying" K&T wiring
I have personally seen many "original" panels fed as sub panels - often as a "stopgap" while existing K&T or "surface molding" wiring was phased out over time to avoid having to modify or "molest" any of the original ancient yet functioning wiring.
And American electricians should carry a REALLY GOOD errors and omissions insurance policy!!!!
I am aware of a few houses that STILL have unmolested K&T wiring - but VERY FEW. (old guy or gal still living in the house their grandfather built - or was even born in - with no "modern conveniences" I'm sure there are still some left in upstate new york, and parts of the American South too. I've seen houses in my travels through the USA that were built before the civil war and defying gravity and pretty much every rule of nature are still standing - and being lived in - and have OBVIOUSLY not been rewired in the last 40
-60 years.
They can't be replaced on a knob and cleat system where the original light is on a "rosette" or suspended from "cleats" as was common practice from the teens to the thirties?? - mabee longer in some areas.
Have you ever worked in any early REA systems???. K&T and surface molding installations? The "light fixtures" were "drop lights" with clip-on shades snapped onto the bulb.
Before electrical metering became common you paid by the light and by the convenience outlet. People would buy "socket taps" to plug their new-fangled electric iron into the lighting circuit so they didn't have to have and pay for "convenience outlets" - and yes - this happened in the USA - not just in Canada
No. It was relatively common - particularly for lighting.. - and surface mounted switches.. Even the old "punch button" switches were "self boxed" - the wiring was protected by a porcelain box attached to the back of the switch. Wooden boxes were also common - generally to enclose "open blade knife switches"
You really ARE an ignorand american ASS, aren't you????
ANd as noted - before individual metering you paid for your electicity by a "flat rate" which was determined by the number of lighting outlets and the number of "convenience outlets" installed in the house.
It may be common in the USA, but is VERY UNCOMMON here in Canada. (and I am sure it is also very un-common in MANY parts of the USA. In Canada it will NOT pass an inspection where an inspection is required. If a circuit is modified,and particularly if a wall is opened, a permit and inspection are required and the project MUST be brought up to current code.
If I tear out my kitchen cabinets and reconfigure the kitchen I need to bring it up to code (not much of a problem for me since mine was redone about 12 years ago and my panel was replaced and inspected about 5 or 6 years ago) ALL of the aluminum wiring had to be inspected and remediated - and ANY CHANGES to the aluminum wiring - including replacing a switch or receptace - BY CANADIAN CODE needs to be done by a licensed electrician.
New york or Chicago by chance? Even back in 1914 there were a goodly number of AMERICAN cities where K&T wiring was outlawed - obstensibly for "Safety reasons"
(Except in Multi Unit Residential Buildings where conduit is becoming more common - particularly in masonary construction)
It is based on "condition" and "molested" -otherwise known as "improperly modified" is a "condition" that fails inspection.
The state of electric in Canada is, by regulation. significantly better than in most of the USA. We don't have a lot of K&T problems in Canada either - because the VAST MAJORITY has been replaced. Our safety requirements are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the USA.
It helps that Canadians don't see EVERYTHING the government does as being a plot to deprive them of their constitutionally guaranteed FREEDUMS (with the odd exceptions of a few - like 2 of my brothers -
-) - -
Not surprised at all. I've seen rec rooms wired with outdoor telephone wire (copper plated steel) I've seen connections made in the open with no box. I've seen connections just twisted together (terribly, I might add!!)and taped with hockey tape or covered with a rag bound on with string.. I;ve found hidden junction boxes, and wiring done with extention cords. I've seen nails driven through "romex" and wires entered into boxes with no clamps - and the wires not stapled to the structure. I've seen BX with no "anti-shorts" and EMT used as the safety ground with gaps between pieces of condiuit. I've even seen the conduit used as a neutral - on a jury rigged "edison circuit" and they wondered why they were blowing their computer power supplies (voltage varied from about 20 to 210 depending on the load distribution between the 2 sides of the "floating neutral" circuit - - -
The courts basically said it's against the constitutional rights to tell people what they can and can't do with their own property. Courts and common sence usually don't occupy the same space - -
If you turn your back and don't look for the problems you will never see them. IF the K&T is just a lightly loaded lighting circuit you ARE likely to get away with it - but there was a REASON original code required all "open wiring on insulators" to be a minimum of 1 inch from any surface - combustible or not.
Wiring done with properly installed plastic jacketed "romex" wiring is every bit as safe as wiring in conduit - emt, rigid, or plastic. It is also a LOT easier to troubleshoot than individual conductors - it is almost impossible to get crossed neutrals. I have worked with a fair bit of individual wire in conduit and after someone has made an undocumented modification, figuring out what they did and why it doesn't work - or trying to re-modify it - is a LOT HARDER than a "romex" or even "bx" sytem. I'd pretty mnuch have to agree a LARGE part of the reason for Chicago and NYC and some other places requiring everything be in conduit is due to union manipulation. Not all the rats in Chicago have 4 legs!!!!! (rats chewing wires being one of several reasons given for requiring conduit)
What it really cones down to is good workmanship, quality materials, and understanding why things need to be sone a certain way.
It is not ALL a conspiracy - - - -
Putting everything on AFCI breakers adds a fair amount to the cost of a job (I have most circuits on AFCI and / or GFCI in my house - the AFCI being a second level of protection for the aluminum wiring.
DANG those things are expensive for a Square D QO panel!!!! -
( Only if identified as non grounded GFCI protected here in Canada)
My dad rewired a LOT of houses - some K&T, some pre-grounded 2 wire cable, and even some aluminum. With drywall construction it is NOT that onerous, particularly with an accessible attic and unfinished basement. The house where I grew up originally had 6 or 7 drop lights and 2 "convenience plugs" and was lath and plaster over double brick and log construction - story and a half - K$T with no boxes. Dad wired it in his spare time over a period of a few months (and also installed indoor plumbing and heat - house originally bult in about 1873???
He also did a LOT of rural electrification - and he figured out how to do it without requiring a LOT of demolition and rebuilding.
It is based on history. When originally installed insulation around the conductors was FORBIDDEN
Irrelevant to what you responded to.
And what I wrote is present tense. NEC article 394 - Knob & tube NEC article 398 - open wiring on insulators
All of this is really irrelevant.
Zero relevance
Which has no meaning.
Sounds like "open wiring on insulators" and is, in any case, zero relevance
Zero relevance. Never used under the NEC.
For industrial?
Residential circuits, when K&T was used, were low amperage because there was not a lot of load. Why would ring circuits be used?
And you think residential circuits were larger than 15A or wire smaller than #14 (which would be the point of ring circuits)?
The state of Minnesota says I am. I know how K&T is installed and have saved authentic knobs, tubes, wire, loom.
It really is not that difficult.
Temporary wiring is relevant? There are many reasons not to refeed original panels, I have listed them.
Yawn
Jeez - they are likely to burn down tomorrow.
Surface wiring? That is not K&T.
I have a "socket tap" somewhere. Zero relevance.
Maybe in Canada.
You are fond of asserting what you (allegedly) see in Canada is what occurs here. Also fond of changing the subject.
Zero relevance
Allowed by the NEC.
Not a NEC requirement.
Also not NEC requirements.
Zero relevance. Chicago also did not allow Romex. I think also NYC.
Zero relevance
IT IS NOT BASED ON CONDITION. That has been a major point. The court case linked to was not inspected by an insurance company. Likely no inspection of condition in micky's post. When you are redlining inspections of condition are counterproductive.
My favorite. The my county's [whatever] is better than your country's [whatever] argument
Zero relevance.
Zero relevance.
Wrong WITH MINIMAL READING ABILITY YOU COULD READ THAT THE THE COURTS (INSURANCE AND INSULATION) FOUND NO EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED TO JUSTIFY INSURANCE DENIAL OR INSULATION PROHIBITION.
Sorry about the caps, but that is the major point I have been making.
WITH MINIMAL READING ABILITY YOU COULD HAVE READ THAT THE THE COURTS (INSURANCE AND INSULATION) FOUND NO EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED TO JUSTIFY INSURANCE DENIAL OR INSULATION PROHIBITION.
Apparently needs repeating.
Chicago/NYC decisions not made on the basis of facts and data. Just like prohibiting insulation on K&T.
Zero relevance.
Same here Zero relevance.
I guess Canada has a lot of K&T behind drywall.
Economics of slave labor is different.
IF YOU READ WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN, INSULATION INSTALLED AROUND K&T WAS NOT FORBIDDEN. THE PROVISION WAS ADDED WITH NO SUBSTANTIATION FOR THE CHANGE. THERE WAS NO BASIS FOR THE CHANGE EXCEPT OPINION.
Sorry about the caps again, but you don't seem to understand the arguments.
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