Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?

[nicksanspam]

Would you have any evidence that solder connections deteriorate over time, if they are not overheated?

Nick

[souperman]

I wish they still used K+T wiring. It was the safest method available, except for those funky exposed scrrews on the turn switches. All they need to do is put a cover over the switches and add a 3rd wire for grounding.

[hallerb]

I agree with all of this but the most dangerous part are comnnections buried in walls where they cant be inspected and may catch fire under a long list of possible reasons.

insurance has good reasons for their rules...........

[Bob]

No

Bob

[RBM]

Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why insurance companies would have any problem with it

[Speedy Jim]

It's true, nonetheless.

This is one of many citations regarding it:

Jim

[Bob]

I've been hearing stories about K&T related cancellations for several years.

Bob

[Jim Redelfs]

I just returned from my daughter and son-in-law's "new" home in Davenport, Iowa. Within the lathe-and-plaster walls on the two, finished floors, it is ALL knob-and-tube wiring. It never occurred (until now) to ask if they had trouble getting insurance. I assume they did NOT as they now have a nice mortgage.

All exposed wiring in the basement has been replaced. When the house's service panel was upgraded, the main and second-floor circuits (knob-and-tube) were placed on 20-amp breakers. This was, and probably still is, compliant with NEC.

Knob-and-tube wiring may not be very good but, in its original form, it is NOT the hazard some claim.

To answer the Subject above, K&T is NOT always dangerous. People with their over-sized fuses, pennies and half-assed taps ARE.

[Tekkie®]

[e-mail] posted for all of us... I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Right, to keep shareholders happy.

[RBM]

I read what Jim sent, which makes sense for any potential fire hazard. Any wiring in poor condition would be a risk for an insurance company

[MDT at Paragon Home Inspection]

As it happens I've just been updating my list of issues that affect underwriting in Chicago and Suburbs, based on conversations with local agents. The most common issues are:

Roofs obviously near end of their useful lives.

Porches or stairs with missing or damaged railings.

Coverage of large areas with ivy or other similar plants (for example, State Farm).

EIFS or Dryvit synthetic stucco over *frame* construction.

Frame buildings in close proximity to another structure (especially a problem in Chicago).

Any fused (as oposed to circuit breaker) based systems, even if 100A in good conditon.

Knob and Tube wiring

For some companies, *any* electrical service less than 100A (or example, Hartford).

Generally, for pre-1900 construction some companies (for example, Hartford) expect to see major updating of systems such as electrical and HVAC.

If an applicant states that there has been recent updating some companies (for example, Allstate) may request to review receipts for the repairs, and expect that these will be from a "licensed contractor".

Previous claims or inquiries discovered during a CLUE search, especially for water damage.

[Joshua Putnam]

Properly installed and maintained K&T is quite safe, though it would be a good idea to install GFCI outlets (properly labeled "no equipment ground").

The problem comes if it either wasn't a great installation in the first place, or if it's been tampered with or damaged.

A good solder joint will last a century or longer, but a bad one can get worse over time, e.g. corrosion from leftover flux, a cold joint developing increasing resistance, etc. Depending on the age of the house, the wiring may have been soldered using irons heated over a fire, which made cold joints more likely since the iron didn't maintain a constant temperature.

Many times you'll find amateurish additions to K&T systems, I've seen Romex twisted on and wrapped in duct tape for added lights or outlets.

Some homeowners have blown insulation over wiring that was fine in open air, but gets too hot without air circulation.

My own house was almost entirely K&T when we bought it, mostly on one breaker (and a Zinsco breaker at that), so the insurance inspection was more detailed than usual, and the inspector asked about what appliances were going to be used in which rooms so he could get a better idea of whether the wiring would be safe as we were using it. No trouble once it was inspected and approved, but not every insurance company will accept K&T.

[Joshua Putnam]

As an insurance agent, I wish more home inspectors were aware of what conditions can lead to insurance problems.

Insurance companies aren't just worried about gross deficiencies, they're worried about anything that significantly increases the risk of loss. A house can be fully code-compliant and structurally sound, but still be very difficult to insure.

There's nothing more frustrating than telling a first-time home buyer that their dream house doesn't qualify for standard insurance. Almost inevitably, the first words out of their mouths are, "But it passed inspection!"

[hallerb]

hey insurance wants to minimize payouts and make money, statistics show K&T has more troubles and how many people really WANT a house fire?

Its risks injury and death, let alone the mental part of your home burning, losing a place to live, and possesions.

We had fire victims here for over 7 months, the whole thing mnessed them up

[Bud--]

Great links, probably not read by hallerb.

I agree that K&T is basically reliable. IMHO insurance denial for K&T (and some other causes in this thread) is in fact redlining.

I have seen 2 failures of soldered joints. Both were bad when made. One was K&T, one was BX in a metal box.

I have read, don't know if it is true, that K&T are still installed where flooding is a problem because it dries out better.

bud--

[trader4]

Now that sounds like a real dumb insurance company. I can understand why insurance companies have issues with K&T and may choose not to cover homes with it. But any insurance company that has inspectors running around asking homeowners which appliances they are going to use where, is surely stupid. Homeowners move appliances around all the time. Also, someone doing anything from carpet cleaning to a contractor doing home repairs can plug in various loads. Either the wiring is safe with the fusing in place or it isn't.

[pennsylady2002]

[SNIP]

Very interesting. Said family member also looked at another, quaint hillside bungalow where some sort of foliage (still haven't identified the genus and species) grew straight up to the side of the house). I never thought of insurability when I walked through it, but I told family member to demand that seller raze the entire hillside before a sales agreement was even entered into. Man, but was this place cool. High off the ground, over a two-car circa 1900 garage, in PA coal country...but all hardwoood, with a new kitchen and bath. Kewl. I could not tell whether the mold I detected was in the "un-attic-ed" second floor, due to an old roof (BUT--no leak stains) or whether the surplus vegetation, and how! was responsible for the moldy smell.

Why would this be objectionable? As it happens, the home with the K&T had unbelievable wide framing, a stone foundation and first floor, all stucco-ed over. The sills on the leaking windows (and not all windows were leaking) were wide enough for the fat lady at the opera to sing on. I'd really appreciate hearing more about this point.

Because of the unknown condition of the "proximate" frame home?

Tell me if I'm stupid for even thinking of this solution. It turns out that the K&T home is being sold by the elderly owner because she's remortgaged herself out of existence with a new roof. (Big roof.) She said she'd "low ball" the sale to my family member IF said family member allowed her to remain in the home and rent.

But because of the condition of the property, which I spent an hour walking through yesterday, I thought buying the property for *any* price was unwise. Family member persisted in wanting it, nevertheless (location, location, location). I thought, if the seller were so inclined, family member could 1) take over the home for the exact amount of the elderly seller/occupant's refi, 2) offer to pay real estate agent whatever commission he would have received from a traditional sale at the ax-ing price, and 3) use the TON of bucks she'd spend on a mortgage to rewire the home, thus getting herself the home, accommodating an old woman in a time of need, and also compensating a hard working agent.

Am I living in tinfoil hat dreamland? (Please give me time to adjust the wire hanger, so I can receive your transmissions.)

I ax-ed real estate agent if seller would have any objection to home inspector cutting at least a 2' x 2' piece of the soaked drywall under a leaking window off to see if any K&T is buried in the wall. Agent said he "didn't understand what I meant." And what is a "CLUE search?"

Everybody, this thread should be required reading. Many opposing opinions; almost ALL thoughtful and very polite. Makes Usenet worthwhile.

Tanks a lot!

[trader4]

I think the issue here is there have been lots of problems with certain types of stucco done over frame construction. The problems stem from moisture trapped behind the stucco that leads to rapid rotting of the wood framing. I've seen TV reports of homes that are less than 10 years old that have major damage. And you can't see it until it's too late. There is a $2Mil+ home directly behind my house that is less than 15 years old. Right now they have removed all the stucco and are doing repair work, another victim.

I also was looking at a stucco home being sold recently where one of the features was that it had an electronic moisture monitoring system installed behind the stucco. I guess that way at least you know you are screwed. lol

Yes and if one catchs fire, it's a higher risk than if there is seperation.

Why would anyone be stupid enough to sell a house based on a refi amount as opposed to what it is actually worth? If you had a house worth $400K, but refinanced an existing mortgage of $200k, would you sell it for $200K? For the little old lady, a better solution may be a reverse mortgage, which would allow her to get out of debt and continue to live there, plus get an income stream.

If I was buying a house with K&T that has obvious maintenance issues, like this one apparently does, I would have the wiring replaced. What good is a limited inspection of one area going to do?

[pennsylady2002]

Holy Fee-holies. Am I EVER glad I posted here. I just got my $8.95/month dial-up connection money's worth. See, I thought that because the stucco was *generally* over an old stone foundation--and I'm talking "stone" as in Fred FlintSTONE--there wouldn't necessarily be anything to worry about. But now that you and the Paragon gent mention it, the unnaturally wide-silled windows that leaked ALL were set in this stucco, and the mold was tremengious.

Well, at least now I have a full alt.home.repair "inspection." Never ever ever occurred to me that the asking price was as low as it was because the frame construction--even if it's 2' x 200', rotted away over the last two hundred or so years.

THANK Y-O-U.

[bowgus]

Knob and tube is not by nature dangerous. The problem comes when adding outlets to it, or when using it as a clothes line, whatever, to hang stuff from in the basement :-) I just had my old place rewired to bring it up to code. Why ... it's now a requirement in order to get insurance ... and to be honest I feel safer. The existing circuits were probably at full capacity. I had had a new panel put in, and had put in a few new circuits to the basement and 1st floor to ease that a bit, but the time had come to have all the old wiring replaced. And since an insurance company was involved, a certificate was required ... easier to just hire an electrician to do the remaining work (in my case) and to call in the inspector for that certificate.

Get some estimates ... it may not be *that* costly depending on what all needs doing and the layout.

Having said that, the walls will likely end up with a few full holes here and there for running the wiring ... and to be patched/painted. If that's not a problem (diy), not much of an additional expense. Consider patching/painting in that estimate. I still haven't finished all my patching ... maybe next winter :-)