I like the phrase "Statement of Work". All the W's (Who, What, When Where and Witness) can detail things easier. If the SOW says for 5000 feet of fiber optics to pass all test and it does, the dude gets paid as the SOW is in the contract. if not he fixes the network backbone.
Oren "My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes."
What theory? Actual experience. I installed a furnace for a customer and I had a signed estimate. It comes time to pay and the guy says, "Nope, dont want to". ?? He had no complaint with anything. Finally the lawyers hashed it out and we settled on 2/3rds or the original estimate and we had to pay our own lawyer fees. That brought it down to 1/3rd the original quote. Finally heard his complaint was the price was too high. It wasnt. Just shows you that between a judge and a goofy customer, anything can happen. Is that, "theory enough" for you trader? Bubba
How about the fact that in a state that requires you to be licenced, and you are not, you can get away with allowing the guy to do the work, and when its time to pay, you tell him to get out and there really isnt a damn thing he can do about it.
All you guys that want cheap, hire a local non licenced hack, and go on and get your HVAC system replaced with a top of the line Goodman (lol) and get ALL your wiring replaced and all your water lines replaced too...make sure he knows you are not paying a thing till hes done, and then, dont.
"If there is no written offer, there can be no contract. Verbal agreements are worth the paper they're written on. They are enforceable, but only if you 're lucky, and if you DO win, you don't have much of a chance of relief. "
Well. which is it? First you say without a written offer, there can be no contract. Then you say verbal agreements are enforceable. A verbal contract, with a few exceptions, eg for real estate transactions, is enforceable without anything being in writing. The difficulty is proving which party is telling the truth and right.
"Buy all materials yourself and save money. "
My comment on that is: If you buy your own materials, you can also do your own work. If I install someone elses materials or equipment (I wont), I would not put any warranty on the materials. for instance, you supply the water heater. I install it. We find it is faulty (leaks) from the factory. I will charge to install it, then charge to take it out so you can return for exchance, then charge to put it back in again. I have no control over the quality of what you buy. I also make no money on it. I am not "Charity Cooling & Plumbing". Don't be a tight wad.
End of rant.
Stretch
... : : A verbal contract is just as binding as a written one. It all depends : on who the judge believes. And when the contractor shows up with : actual jobs for similar work for $3000 and says "judge, why in the : world would I quote 2000 when I know it would cost me $3000", the judge : would probably have a hard time not believing him, especially when it's : your turn to testify UNDER OATH (doesn't that mean anything anymore?) : and you keep changing your story because you're lying through your : teeth.
So, it's up to a judge to decide who he believes (that would be small claims court; a preponderance of the evidence): Sooo, just how is THAT better than a written, signed contract detailng the work? It's not.
Nonsense.
: > Thanks : : Yep, it is reasonable, but estimates are not binding, so it isn't worth the : paper it is written on. : : If you want a definite figure for a specific set of tasks finished during a : particular timeframe, ask for a quote. That'll be binding, assuming you : accept it without asking for changes. : : KB : No, assuming they both sign and date it, and that it's written correctly. Then most likely yes.
"Steve B" wrote in message news:ojHsf.63$JT.25@fed1read06... : : "Yank_fan_2965" wrote in message : news: snipped-for-privacy@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... : > Quick question. I am going to remodel my attic. I have yet to install : > the knee walls and the framing necessary prior to the installation of : > the electrical components. I want to get a firm quote on the electrical : > before I proceed with the framing. I got an estimate from an : > electirician to do all of the electrical, bring addn'l lines up from : > the basement etc. Several days after he visited my home he gave me a : > verbal estimate of the total cost over the phone. No real details were : > included. I then asked him to provide me with a written estimate. He : > declined. He said he wanted to wait until he was ready to start the : > job. I feel that he should be able to provide a written estimate of the : > costs now. Am I being unreasonable? : >
: > Thanks : >
: : A "contract" is made of two elements. : : Offer and acceptance. : : The contractor (and make SURE he is a contractor) OFFERS to do the work for : a price. : : The owner ACCEPTS the offer, and they have a CONTRACT. : : If there is no written offer, there can be no contract. Verbal agreements : are worth the paper they're written on. They are enforceable, but only if : you 're lucky, and if you DO win, you don't have much of a chance of relief. : : You should ask your "contractor" to have their insurance company (ies) send : you documentation of worker's compensation coverage, liability coverage, and : surety bond. : : If they don't do this, they aren't a contractor. Or not a good contractor. : You may be the general, or owner contractor on the job, and be allowed to : hire subs that don't have a contractor's license, but it CAN get complicated : from there. Laws vary from state to state. : : Bottom line, if you want to be more sure that it's done and done right, hire : a contractor. I said more sure, because there isn't any guarantee that you : won't have problems with a licensed contractor. But you are less likely to. : With subs and unlicensed contractors, it can turn into the attic job from : hell. : : I would say if this person won't put it in writing, they're not a : contractor. Be wary hiring them. Buy all materials yourself and save : money. NEVER, repeat NEVER, let them get ahead of you in the amount of : money paid versus the amount of work done. : : Contracting without a license (even giving an estimate to do work) is a : felony in my state, and they have FINALLY started enforcing it on these : boobs. : : Steve : : Excellent post, especially the insurance and bonding mention. Those are very important: Without it, they're working on YOUR homeowner's insurance protection. And could sue you as I saw happen two summers ago. Dropped a chimney stone on his foot - broke a toe. Sued the guy in small claims. Lost, but still ...
Bubba Dec 28, 10:45 pm What theory? Actual experience. I installed a furnace for a customer and I had a signed estimate. It comes time to pay and the guy says, "Nope, dont want to". ?? He had no complaint with anything. Finally the lawyers hashed it out and we settled on 2/3rds or the original estimate and we had to pay our own lawyer fees. That brought it down to 1/3rd the original quote. Finally heard his complaint was the price was too high. It wasnt. Just shows you that between a judge and a goofy customer, anything can happen. Is that, "theory enough" for you trader? Bubba "
You made the assertion that a judge would not award anything to a oontractor who did a job without a contract and didn't get paid. What does this experience have to do with that? Apparently you did get paid something by agreeing to a settlement out of court, which instead of supporting your position, tends to refute it. Are you conflicted?
Damn trader, .....you can be dense at times. Now pay attention and I'll run through it a little clearer. Im a contractor. I had a legit signed contract and still got fudged on my total amount due me. Now......... Think of what Id have gotten if I had absolutely no contract whatsoever? My lawyer wouldnt even have let that one get to court. He'd still be laughing and the homeowner would have a nice new free furnace. Are you following along now? Does that make it any clearer. Verbal contracts here dont work. I cant explain it any clearer. Now, are you conflicted or confused? Go lick a window. It might help. Bubba
Possibly. Some things that may have influenced the electrician's refusal to provide a written estimate:
- Your work wasn't completed when the electrician visited. Things might have changed from when he visited and he's wary of giving an estimate in writing without seeing the completed work.
- He might have gotten a vibe that you were price shopping and was concerned that you would hand that written estimate to another electrician. He does the estimating and another guy gets paid. Are you price shopping? Did you contact other electricians? I'm not saying you shouldn't get a couple or three bids, but I'm sure you can understand the reluctance if that's the case.
- Your job sounds fairly small, and a lot of contractors loathe paperwork. It's not the reason they're in the business. It's also a business where established relationships have the benefit of history and trust - paperwork is frequently kept at a minimum. You being a new guy to him, and a potential pain in the ass, is a risk for him. You too, but he's not looking at it from your side of the fence.
If your intention is to lock in a firm price, write up the contract so the guy will know you're not shopping around and he won't have to worry about that. You'll need to finish up your work, or guarantee certain conditions, before any sensible contractor will sign a contract with a guaranteed price.
As an aside to the other poster's who are batting the judge/court outcomes back and forth: Do your states have mechanic's liens? In this neck of the woods, filing a mechanic's lien puts an encumbrance on the property. If the owner goes to refinance, take out equity, gets a credit check, etc., it will show up as a ding. Frequently the owner will be the one in a hurry to get the thing resolved as the amount in question may be much smaller than the amount in jeopardy due to the lien.
R
This is true and is probably why the "contractor" that installed a replacement heating system in my house in Jan 1992 was sued by the town attorney.
This heating guy should have gotten permits from the town. He didn't, so the town came after me instead. But, when the town learned that this guy was again doing plumbing work, they went after him. You see, the town had revoked this guy's plumbing license already. He was prohibited to do any plumbing in this town.
The town attorney had kept me informed, as they wanted my testimony in the court record. It would have meant time away from my office, but I was already angry and willing. However, at the last minute, the guy changed his plead to guilty and was fined: $250.00. BIG DEAL.!
This did not help me any when I went after the heating guy in small claims (evening) court. I would have been happier if the town was awarded $2500.00 rather than $250.00.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.